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Author Topic: Is Atlas OP?  (Read 5133 times)

TK3600

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Is Atlas OP?
« on: June 22, 2024, 11:28:09 AM »

For some reason Atlas is much more efficient than Colossus, a much bigger jump than Buffalo to Colossus. By efficient i mean in terms of cargo/maintenance(Atlas: 200/1, Colossus: 150/1) , cargo/fuel use (333.33 vs 225), cargo/DP(200 vs 112.5), fleet slot, basically everything. It pretty much makes Colossus pointless considering Atlas can be acquired very early and easy. It is everywhere, and don't cost all that much.

Now you might say hey it is kinda slow, has huge sensor profile, but these are fixed with hull mods. Mil spec buff speed to 7, and remove the sensor debuff. Slap a augmented drive field on it and it will be 9 speed, as fast as a destroyer. Normally there is a 2 mod only limit of logistic, but this can be solved with S-mod.

Ever since the introduction of S-mods, the 2 logi mod cap can be bypassed. With some S-mod Atlas fleet no longer have any downside, it may as well be a destroyer speed cargo carrier. S-mod the augmented drive field, now it moves at 9 speed. Milspec mod this to 10 speed for frigate fleets, and remove sensor profile debuff. Use the 2nd mod for cargo space and it is all good. Efficiency mod is unneeded because it is already more efficient than Colossus with efficiency modding, but sure you can s-mod it if you care.

Optional: s-mod the insulated engine, now it has less sensor profile than a cruiser, which basically is nothing.

Suggested solution: Make Atlas slightly less efficient, so it don't fully beat out a maxed colossus with 1 s-mod.

10>12 DP
10>12 maintnence
6>7 fuel/ly

With this change, the base Atlas is still more supply efficient than colossus, just less of a no-brainer after a single s-mod. It retain the niche of having most concentrated logistic ship in 1 fleet slot, much more DP efficient for end game, and generally more efficient to move mass cargo around. What it will not do is beating a Colossus with 1 s-mod without investing its own. If both gets 1 S-mod, they still retain their niche. Thoughts?
« Last Edit: June 22, 2024, 11:51:18 AM by TK3600 »
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Cryovolcanic

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Re: Is Atlas OP?
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2024, 12:16:59 PM »

Good post TK3600, even though I disagree.

A few thoughts in no particular order

1) The "brutal economic efficiency" of the Atlas is referenced in in-game lore. So the stats mirror the lore, which in my opinion is good worldbuilding.

2) I regularly use Buffaloes, Hound/Cerberus, Colossus, Ventures etc even in modded runs. Early on I:
a) can't afford enough Atlases,
b) don't have enough spare story points to s-mod in insulated engines and other hullmods (capitals are 0% bonus XP until scuttled),
c) I may WANT Ventures for combat reasons,
d) I may not have found the right hullmods yet,
e) I may have salvaged/steal ship mission for Colossi and other cargo ships.

I never do smuggling but that would be another reason to use cargo ships other than the Atlas.

3) I am fine with the Atlas ultimately being the best late-game option--we need something to upgrade into. If anything, I want more interesting civilian and support ships in the game with other kinds of utility.

4) Given how easy it is to buy Atlases from Sindria and Chicomoztoc, we do need some kind of in-world explanation as to why Buffaloes and Colossi are so prevalent. I wouldn't mind the Atlas either being rarer or more expensive in up-front costs. From a finance perspective we need to make the Atlas less NPV-positive from the viewpoint of an in-world shipping company.
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prav

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Re: Is Atlas OP?
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2024, 12:18:29 PM »

An s-modded atlas is pretty ridiculous. At the same time, I appreciate just not having to worry about logistics.
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Lawrence Master-blaster

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Re: Is Atlas OP?
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2024, 12:21:50 PM »

If you want linear progression Atlas should be 12 maint/8 fuel but that wouldn't make Colossus any more useful. You'd have to nerf the(quite ridiculous to be honest) logistic hullmod S-mod bonuses.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2024, 12:23:25 PM by Lawrence Master-blaster »
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Bungee_man

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Re: Is Atlas OP?
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2024, 02:27:51 PM »

The Atlas is what you use when you have the money for it and can deal with the downsides, either by having enough spare SP to mitigate them or having enough weaponry to deal with whatever can now see you and catch up to you. It's basically there for when you've completed the section of the game that would incentivize smaller logistics ships; having it be worse wouldn't make the game any harder, but would make it more tedious.
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yajusenpai

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Re: Is Atlas OP?
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2024, 03:02:21 PM »

There is a thing called economy of scale.
If it doesn't enable you to carry around more stuff cheaper with more efficiency.
Why use a bigger ship.

Atlas is better because it need to be better otherwise there are no reason for it to exist.
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Goumindong

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Re: Is Atlas OP?
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2024, 04:34:08 PM »

4) Given how easy it is to buy Atlases from Sindria and Chicomoztoc, we do need some kind of in-world explanation as to why Buffaloes and Colossi are so prevalent. I wouldn't mind the Atlas either being rarer or more expensive in up-front costs. From a finance perspective we need to make the Atlas less NPV-positive from the viewpoint of an in-world shipping company.

1) no everyone has s-mods

2) an atlas is only efficient if you’re hauling enough goods to fill it up. For players we almost always do this when flying out and salvaging. But for others this may not be the case. So you run the ship that you can fill, rather than the one that is most efficient.

3) money still matters. If you have enough money to buy, equip, protect and run an atlas the. You have enough money to not be a salvager. Salvagers may have big profit margins but they also have big risks too. So once you have the Atlas, you’ve made it and you don’t go to the fringe with it.
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Phenir

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Re: Is Atlas OP?
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2024, 06:31:17 PM »

Atlas is slower than almost all other ships so it needs augmented engine, bulk transport skill, or tugs if you don't want to be slow. All three of those are a concern; augmented engines is a logistics hullmod, bulk transport needs a skill point in the industry tree, and if you use a tug is it really more efficient than colossus (you'll probably also have prometheus though)?
It's progression through ship count. A taller logistics fleet means more space for combat ships, if you happen to be building a wide combat fleet anyway.
It has a ridiculously huge sensor profile which means it needs insulated engines which will either take 1 one of your logistics slots or smod slots.
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TK3600

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Re: Is Atlas OP?
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2024, 09:34:53 AM »

Good post TK3600, even though I disagree.

A few thoughts in no particular order

1) The "brutal economic efficiency" of the Atlas is referenced in in-game lore. So the stats mirror the lore, which in my opinion is good worldbuilding.

2) I regularly use Buffaloes, Hound/Cerberus, Colossus, Ventures etc even in modded runs. Early on I:
a) can't afford enough Atlases,
b) don't have enough spare story points to s-mod in insulated engines and other hullmods (capitals are 0% bonus XP until scuttled),
c) I may WANT Ventures for combat reasons,
d) I may not have found the right hullmods yet,
e) I may have salvaged/steal ship mission for Colossi and other cargo ships.

I never do smuggling but that would be another reason to use cargo ships other than the Atlas.

3) I am fine with the Atlas ultimately being the best late-game option--we need something to upgrade into. If anything, I want more interesting civilian and support ships in the game with other kinds of utility.

4) Given how easy it is to buy Atlases from Sindria and Chicomoztoc, we do need some kind of in-world explanation as to why Buffaloes and Colossi are so prevalent. I wouldn't mind the Atlas either being rarer or more expensive in up-front costs. From a finance perspective we need to make the Atlas less NPV-positive from the viewpoint of an in-world shipping company.

I certainly don't mind Atlas as the ultimate economic option (and it still is after my nerf), but it is able to trivially bypass its drawbacks of speed and sensor signature.

 Perhaps the issue is less with Atlas, but more with how broken the augmented drive field is. I mean really, you could make a battleship the speed of a destroyer. It completely trivialize the strategic mobility trade off of big fleet vs small mobile fleet. With a built-in, you may field a capital ship with speed of frigates. Maybe drive field bonus should be nerfed to 1, and cost lowered to 12 from 24.
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Phenir

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Re: Is Atlas OP?
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2024, 10:02:17 AM »


 Perhaps the issue is less with Atlas, but more with how broken the augmented drive field is. I mean really, you could make a battleship the speed of a destroyer. It completely trivialize the strategic mobility trade off of big fleet vs small mobile fleet. With a built-in, you may field a capital ship with speed of frigates. Maybe drive field bonus should be nerfed to 1, and cost lowered to 12 from 24.
Augmented drive costs 40 op for capitals, 24 for cruisers. It's extremely expensive for something that doesn't help in combat. And it's a logistics hullmod so it is further limited.
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TK3600

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Re: Is Atlas OP?
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2024, 11:06:00 AM »


 Perhaps the issue is less with Atlas, but more with how broken the augmented drive field is. I mean really, you could make a battleship the speed of a destroyer. It completely trivialize the strategic mobility trade off of big fleet vs small mobile fleet. With a built-in, you may field a capital ship with speed of frigates. Maybe drive field bonus should be nerfed to 1, and cost lowered to 12 from 24.
Augmented drive costs 40 op for capitals, 24 for cruisers. It's extremely expensive for something that doesn't help in combat. And it's a logistics hullmod so it is further limited.
You would have a point on 2 logi mod cap if not for existance of S-mod. Second Atlas is not for combat, you are not really saving OP for combat on Atlas.

For a s-mod, how many OP do not matter, it all count as 0. S-moded logi mod do not count toward the 2 logi mod cap. I could go augmented drive (S-mod), cargo space, mil spec. All at once.

For a ship you are permanently using from start to end, 1 story point s trivial.

Cost of acquisition is a non factor. You can afford it and find it 15min into the game, and it stays in fleet forever. This means it is super worth the s point.

In fact I recommend 2 s-mod for good measures. Augmented drive(s), extra cargo(s). Combine it with Insulated engine, then either mil spec or efficiency or survey/high res optics. This lower to standard capital ship signature. If you went mil spec, then you go below cruiser signature, but count into your fleet dp. If no mil spec, then I suggest optics. It count as a capital, so provides max reduction for diminishing return.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2024, 11:10:03 AM by TK3600 »
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Phenir

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Re: Is Atlas OP?
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2024, 11:35:14 AM »

Second Atlas is not for combat, you are not really saving OP for combat on Atlas.
You're the one that mentioned using it on battleships:
Perhaps the issue is less with Atlas, but more with how broken the augmented drive field is. I mean really, you could make a battleship the speed of a destroyer. It completely trivialize the strategic mobility trade off of big fleet vs small mobile fleet. With a built-in, you may field a capital ship with speed of frigates. Maybe drive field bonus should be nerfed to 1, and cost lowered to 12 from 24.
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Void Ganymede

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Re: Is Atlas OP?
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2024, 07:51:45 PM »

High Resolution Sensors burn 10 Atlas, my beloved!

S-modding logistics ships is extremely good, but kind of has to be? Combat is the foundation of the game, spending story points on non-combat has to be worth it.
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Cryovolcanic

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Re: Is Atlas OP?
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2024, 09:36:24 PM »

Anyone s-mod Colossi and Ventures in the early game and scuttle them to get the SP back, or do you just wait till you get Atlases?

I do s-mod Ventures, but I usually keep them the whole game or at least until I am 100% done with exploration. S-modding the built-in surveying on Ventures gives 100% bonus XP and allows me to go sensors on Atlas and Prometheus.
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Tranquility

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Re: Is Atlas OP?
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2024, 11:40:01 PM »

One thing I haven't seen brought up yet is that getting caught out by a superior enemy fleet while you have an Atlas in your fleet will force you to fight off the enemy head-on or flee using a SP to keep it intact, or else your precious Atlas gets virtually picked off (and is then unrecoverable) during the pursuit battle thanks to its awful top speed. This usually isn't a big deal if you have plenty of SP to spare, or if you are good at combatting enemy fleets or avoiding confrontations altogether. However, near the start of the game, you usually will not have that much SP to burn through if you're saving them for S-Mods in other ships/story dialogue/colony improvements, and you might not have the Tech or Industry skills to reliably evade fleets or comfortably run capital-class ships early on. Combined with the fact that S-Modding an Atlas to further outmatch the other logistic ships also requires SP (that you don't get bonus XP from at all unless you scuttle), and the rarity of coming across an Atlas in the first place, I'm not convinced that the Atlas should be nerfed to compensate for the power of logistic S-Mods.

(If anything, it kinda sounds like the S-Mod bonuses for logistic hullmods should be real problem here? I don't see it that way, of course, as most of them don't affect the combat layer, but I can imagine how they can mess the usual progression of civilian logistics a bit.)
« Last Edit: June 23, 2024, 11:47:10 PM by Tranquility »
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