Fractal Softworks Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Planet Search Overhaul (07/13/24)

Author Topic: Heavy Burst PD shouldn't replace Graviton... Guardian shouldn't replace HIL  (Read 526 times)

Killer of Fate

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1236
    • View Profile

I think I see that occur quite often. Whilst flashy, it feels very... It's very dumb. It's not like Devastator. There is no benefit to putting these weapons on a hardpoint. It'd be like the autofit replacing Heavy Mortars with Flak Cannons, cause Flak Cannons technically do good anti-hull damage... On paper?

[talking about weapon randomisation for NPCs]
« Last Edit: June 19, 2024, 02:58:28 PM by Killer of Fate »
Logged

Doctorhealsgood

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 623
    • View Profile

I was about to say that it isn't that dumb but then you mentioned them being on hardpoints. Damn.
Logged
Quote from: Doctorhealsgood
Sometimes i feel like my brain has been hit by salamanders not gonna lie.

Alex

  • Administrator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 24513
    • View Profile

I think looking at it in terms of "dumb" vs not maybe doesn't make too much sense - some loadouts are just highly randomized. And generally they'll work as if only a subset of weapons was available, so if it's putting a burst laser in, it might be because it's the best choice it's got, not because it thinks that's a better fit or an acceptable sidegrade. I think its probably better to have this sort of thing happen sometimes than for loadouts to be too consistent.
Logged

Killer of Fate

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1236
    • View Profile

I think looking at it in terms of "dumb" vs not maybe doesn't make too much sense - some loadouts are just highly randomized. And generally they'll work as if only a subset of weapons was available, so if it's putting a burst laser in, it might be because it's the best choice it's got, not because it thinks that's a better fit or an acceptable sidegrade. I think its probably better to have this sort of thing happen sometimes than for loadouts to be too consistent.
Well. Okay. It makes perfect sense.

The issue to me might come from the fact that the autofit system works really in favour of ballistic weapons which have many repeats of the same concept. Whereas energy weapons are very non-repeating in their design.

There is no obvious sidegrade really to the Graviton Beam or IR Lance... Or Ion Beam. All these weapons perform very different functions. And if it comes to High Intensity Laser the situation is even worse. The only solution to this problem I would guess is to just give the Persean League access to the Tachyon Lance. But that is out of the question, I assume.

It's still a very rare occurrence however. A very non-issue. I wanted to test the chance of this variant occurring, so I set the amount of Sunders spawned to 100 the original and set the amount of days in-between patrols spawning to 1 day. And I have seen 10 Sunders maybe. Only one of them had chose to replace its High Intensity Laser with a Guardian.

(important that I was doing this for the Persean League)
« Last Edit: June 20, 2024, 12:37:18 PM by Killer of Fate »
Logged

Beep Boop

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 223
    • View Profile

I think looking at it in terms of "dumb" vs not maybe doesn't make too much sense - some loadouts are just highly randomized. And generally they'll work as if only a subset of weapons was available, so if it's putting a burst laser in, it might be because it's the best choice it's got, not because it thinks that's a better fit or an acceptable sidegrade.
Well, he's talking about NPC loadouts. I wasn't aware NPCs could "run out of" a weapon and have the autofit try to pick some random substitute.

I think its probably better to have this sort of thing happen sometimes than for loadouts to be too consistent.
Better in what way? Fixed heavy burst PD and Guardian instead of HIL seems objectively worse in every way...
Logged

Phenir

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 627
    • View Profile

I think looking at it in terms of "dumb" vs not maybe doesn't make too much sense - some loadouts are just highly randomized. And generally they'll work as if only a subset of weapons was available, so if it's putting a burst laser in, it might be because it's the best choice it's got, not because it thinks that's a better fit or an acceptable sidegrade.
Well, he's talking about NPC loadouts. I wasn't aware NPCs could "run out of" a weapon and have the autofit try to pick some random substitute.
Lack of weapons is exactly why bad autofits exist. If you pay attention to npc ships, you'll see them using fits that don't exactly match any variants for that ship. I'm not sure how it works though. Does the generator only get a certain (random amount) supply of weapons to give to ships it generates and if it runs out then too bad?
Quote
I think its probably better to have this sort of thing happen sometimes than for loadouts to be too consistent.
Better in what way? Fixed heavy burst PD and Guardian instead of HIL seems objectively worse in every way...
Probably in the way that you'll see more variation in loadouts, even if they don't always make sense.
But to fixing this problem, could the autofit be made to avoid putting PD weapons in hardpoints? I guess devastator exists though, huh. Maybe no hardpoint tag.
Logged

Princess_of_Evil

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 583
    • View Profile

The weird thing with HBPD replacing things is that the game considers it a rare, good gun. I could see some random guy replacing an expensive ion with a pulse laser, or an autolance, but HBPD is a very weird replacement.
Large Energy slot is slightly less weird, since there aren't good cheap replacement weapons there (HIL is basically the cheap replacement), but Paladin isn't a bad gun. It's just kind of a single flak that deals half frag, but a lot of extra pinpoint energy damage. By energy weapon standards, it's fairly decent.
Logged
Proof that you don't need to know any languages to translate, you just need to care.

Killer of Fate

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1236
    • View Profile

I think looking at it in terms of "dumb" vs not maybe doesn't make too much sense - some loadouts are just highly randomized. And generally they'll work as if only a subset of weapons was available, so if it's putting a burst laser in, it might be because it's the best choice it's got, not because it thinks that's a better fit or an acceptable sidegrade.
Well, he's talking about NPC loadouts. I wasn't aware NPCs could "run out of" a weapon and have the autofit try to pick some random substitute.
Lack of weapons is exactly why bad autofits exist. If you pay attention to npc ships, you'll see them using fits that don't exactly match any variants for that ship. I'm not sure how it works though. Does the generator only get a certain (random amount) supply of weapons to give to ships it generates and if it runs out then too bad?
Quote
I think its probably better to have this sort of thing happen sometimes than for loadouts to be too consistent.
Better in what way? Fixed heavy burst PD and Guardian instead of HIL seems objectively worse in every way...
Probably in the way that you'll see more variation in loadouts, even if they don't always make sense.
But to fixing this problem, could the autofit be made to avoid putting PD weapons in hardpoints? I guess devastator exists though, huh. Maybe no hardpoint tag.
In this case it's a rare randomised variant that causes a Sunder with HIL to swap it out for a Guardian. I think it might occur more with pirates, cause from my understanding pirate bounties with deserter characteristic are using the pirate doctrine. Which means they also get far more autofit. So, you might see Guardian PD Sunders there more.

Otherwise Persean League will most often just fit a High Intensity Laser, and focus their randomisation on the two side beam slots.
Logged

Megas

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 12248
    • View Profile

I remember using Heavy Burst Laser on the hardpoint on a Wolf, but that was because it was built for it, with s-mod Mags, elite PD, and High Scatter Amplifier.  Not very practical because I have better things to use, but if I wanted to use a Wolf, I probably would try to use a burst PD ship.
Logged