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[Lawrence Master-blaster]

Paladin: give it the IR Autolance tweak so that it stops wasting entire mag on the shield of first ship that comes close

Tachyon Lance: give is the Plasma Cannon tweak so that it stops wasting volleys on fighters

[Killer of Fate]

Paladin doesn't waste charges unless it's at maximum.

Removing the Tachyon Lance's ability to shoot down fighters would actually be more of a nerf than a buff.

[intrinsic_parity]

Removing the Tachyon Lance's ability to shoot down fighters would actually be more of a nerf than a buff.

They are not suggesting to remove the ability to shot down fighters, just to prevent targeting fighters. Plasma cannon shots still deal damage to missiles and fighters, it's just the AI doesn't target them directly.

IMO, this is a good idea. Wasting a long cooldown high alpha strike weapon on a fighter is very rarely correct. TBH, I wish the AI would save the lances for when shields are down or flux is high. It is way too liberal with firing them in situations where there is very little utility in firing them IMO.

[Amoebka]

TBH, I wish the AI would save the lances for when shields are down or flux is high. It is way too liberal with firing them in situations where there is very little utility in firing them IMO.

Hard disagree, sorry. It's much better for AI to fire weapons too liberally, than to not fire them when they should because they are trying to be too smart for their own good. It's already far too frustrating how safe AI plays, if it just sits there without even firing weapons players like me would explode.

[Killer of Fate]

Removing the Tachyon Lance's ability to shoot down fighters would actually be more of a nerf than a buff.

They are not suggesting to remove the ability to shot down fighters, just to prevent targeting fighters. Plasma cannon shots still deal damage to missiles and fighters, it's just the AI doesn't target them directly.

IMO, this is a good idea. Wasting a long cooldown high alpha strike weapon on a fighter is very rarely correct. TBH, I wish the AI would save the lances for when shields are down or flux is high. It is way too liberal with firing them in situations where there is very little utility in firing them IMO.

Tachyon Lance's projectile is instant. So, as soon as it is done killing a fighter, it can move on to the next one as long as it's not affected as much by slow turning rate. Whereas Plasma Cannon's projectile are sent upon a singular target. All three of them and at relatively moderate speeds. Making it very much possible for it to overkill fighters.

Whereas if a Tachyon Lance targets a fighter, it will kill one, quickly target another one, etc. etc. Sure, it's expensive. But it's also ridiculously effective. Instantly wiping out fighter formations without giving them any chance to react (though even if they had chance to react, they probably wouldn't do that much).

Giving it a Strike tag, cause I'm assume this is what is causing the Plasma Cannon to not target fighters, would actually make it easier for example to overwhelm a Paragon with fighters. As its Tachyon Lances are extremely effective at neutralising fighters before they even manage to deploy their flares or get into any range of any sort.

fighters. Fighters. Fighters fighters fighting fighters.

[intrinsic_parity]

TBH, I wish the AI would save the lances for when shields are down or flux is high. It is way too liberal with firing them in situations where there is very little utility in firing them IMO.

Hard disagree, sorry. It's much better for AI to fire weapons too liberally, than to not fire them when they should because they are trying to be too smart for their own good. It's already far too frustrating how safe AI plays, if it just sits there without even firing weapons players like me would explode.

It is actively worse to fire a soft flux weapon with <1 damage/flux into shields than to not fire it at all in many cases. You are literally doing more 'damage' to your own flux pool than to the enemies. Particularly against enemies with efficient shields, it is comically bad to waste them into shields. I hate watching my ships actively kill themselves, and also hate watching them have nothing left to punish enemies when they finally do get high on flux. Maybe a blanket AI behavior change would just shift problems to other situations, but I want SOME way of making them use burst anti-armor weapons in reasonable way, like being able to set the strike flag for the weapon group or something.

it can move on to the next one as long as it's not affected as much by slow turning rate

It does have a much slower turn rate the entire time it is firing though?

Fighters are very rarely the thing that scares me in a paragon. It has many other slots to help shoot them down, and fortress shield makes bombers completely irrelevant. Watching it fire its tach lances at max range into a ship at zero flux so that it starts the fight at a flux disadvantage is quite infuriating for me.

[Killer of Fate]

from my experience Sunders for eg. do not fire the Tachyon Lance if they are close to overfluxing. Only using weapons as such when they feel relatively safe with their shields, as they do not want to get overloaded.

I would assume same happens for Paragons.

If it comes to Tachyon Lances not firing at fighters. Are you really worried about it that much? If they are firing at fighters, there is most likely not much else to fire at. And the AI will hold fire if it wants to vent excess flux. So, it wont fire Tachyon Lances at fighters unless the situation is convenient to do so.

And if they are killing fighters when convenient, sure. Paragon doesn't care. But it does make the life of its allies easier. Obviously however it doesn't matter 9/10 times. But it can be helpful nonetheless. Like for example when you snipe Broadswords, Daggers, Longbows from very far away, allowing your Furies to push uncontested. Though obviously, competent High Tech ships which everyone spams have enough PD and shield coverage to not be worried about fighters. Different situation for Longbows though.

And if it comes to slow turn rate. I would honestly recommend using Advanced Turret Gyros on Paragon with Tachyon Lances. As Tachyon Lances' core weakness is slow turn rate. And resolving that makes them significantly more effective against lighter enemies. S-modding it makes them effective even more so... Dangerously so.

If it comes to wasting flux firing the Tachyon Lance at shields. You have to remember that High Tech ships that have the access to the Tachyon Lance tend to have significantly stronger venting stats than average crap you face off against. So, this only really applies to Remnants. Also, as long as the enemy has slight hard flux, there is always a chance the beam will pierce the shield and deal heavy damage to the target. So, the Dev did know that it would technically be a waste to waste beams on shields. So, they added an RNG mechanic that encourages you to fire them in spite of that.

Also, it's probably simpler to have the beam fire every time its available, because otherwise ships wouldn't feel justified having their shields raised. Than to have it only fire when the shield is down. Cause it could cause very... Visible complexities in designing AI behaviour I suppose. But this is an aspect that could be as relevant as the fact that sunsets on Mars are blue.

[Grievous69]

It is actively worse to fire a soft flux weapon with <1 damage/flux into shields than to not fire it at all in many cases. You are literally doing more 'damage' to your own flux pool than to the enemies.

This only matters if it's an honest duel, it's weird to say things like that in a fleet combat game.

Ships being shy with their weapons only leads to your fleet getting surrounded. If there's little pressure the enemy gets too brave. But I guess that's fine as long as you don't break the sacred rule of efficient weapons lol.

[Amoebka]

It is actively worse to fire a soft flux weapon with <1 damage/flux into shields than to not fire it at all in many cases.

"Many" is a nebulous word. Maybe I have much better dissipation and/or capacity and want to brute force the fight. Maybe the enemy has garbage shields and I'm winning the flux trade. Maybe I outrange and can afford to dissipate the soft flux from firing the lance.

Imagine a corner case where my fleet has 10 tach lances and barely any other weapons. That's enough firepower to overload and kill just about anything if they all fire. Yet with your AI changes, nobody would take the first shot at an unfluxed target, and my fleet will simply die without firing a single shot.

In general with design, including game design, there's this concept of "knowing how to make a mistake". When you are drawing a human figure, drawing the legs slighty too long will still look fine and perhaps even flattering. Drawing them too short will look quite bad though. So if you are unsure about your proportions, it's better to draw them longer than shorter.

Getting AI to perfetly analyze the combat situation and use weapons optimally is far too complex and is never happening. So we have to ask ourselves, which mistake is better - AI being too trigger happy, or AI being too shy to fire. I would argue watching your ships refuse to do anything and die is far more frustrating than watching them at least try something and die.

[intrinsic_parity]

It is actively worse to fire a soft flux weapon with <1 damage/flux into shields than to not fire it at all in many cases. You are literally doing more 'damage' to your own flux pool than to the enemies.

This only matters if it's an honest duel, it's weird to say things like that in a fleet combat game.

Ships being shy with their weapons only leads to your fleet getting surrounded. If there's little pressure the enemy gets too brave. But I guess that's fine as long as you don't break the sacred rule of efficient weapons lol.

Aggression is based on relative flux levels. If you raise your own flux more than the enemies, that can lead to them being more agressive, not less. Also, in a fleet context, if you elevate your own flux a lot to hit one enemy ship, all the other ones will still be on low flux and get more agressive. It's obviously not that simple, and a ship like a paragon might want to fire more due to massive range advantage, but I really don't agree with the idea that always shooting is better by default because you apply pressure (although obviously pressure is necessary and valuable). Efficiency definitely matters. For the tach lance specifically though, it's also about the long cooldown. Missing a window where a ship is vulnerable because you wasted the shot on shields for little benefit is a big waste.

If you are outnumbered, you really have to be efficient because the enemy has a much bigger effective flux pool than you. If you have a big effective flux pool advantage, then you can afford to brute force.

[Grievous69]

So if you agree that the answer in broad terms is "it depends" then you can see how a blanket rule of never firing unless x condition is met is not a great idea.

[Genir]

TBH, I wish the AI would save the lances for when shields are down or flux is high. It is way too liberal with firing them in situations where there is very little utility in firing them IMO.

I modded that behavior in. The Tach Lance is waaay stronger when it waits for enemy shields to drop. It doesn't waste flux to harmlessly bounce of shields and has a burst ready exactly when its needed.

[Thaago]

I link lances (both medium phase and tachyon) to PD so they always fire. It's my job as a player to make sure that a "fair" fight where poor efficiency might matter doesn't happen, both in terms of builds and tactics (plus, soft flux is only soft if the enemy is shutting off their guns). If I want a burst weapon to wait for opportunities, I'll use missiles.

[TaLaR]

TBH, I wish the AI would save the lances for when shields are down or flux is high. It is way too liberal with firing them in situations where there is very little utility in firing them IMO.

I modded that behavior in. The Tach Lance is waaay stronger when it waits for enemy shields to drop. It doesn't waste flux to harmlessly bounce of shields and has a burst ready exactly when its needed.

Could go either way.

A 4xTL Paragon doesn't have much aside from these TLs to raise enemy flux with. So using 1st burst to raise, 2nd to do actual damage is fine against most things that aren't other Paragon or Radiant.

Same with TL Sunder vs something like Hammerhead with efficient weapons (so it doesn't generate too much soft flux on it's own). Sunder will lose, waiting for enemy high flux state that never happens. When it could win by being more proactive.

[Lawrence Master-blaster]

I just want to remind everyone that Tachyon Lance has a specific anti-shield functionality(piercing EMP) so it would be weird if you made it not shoot at shields.

Also as a heavy burst weapon it's better than average beam against shields anyway, assuming enemy flux is high enough already.