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Author Topic: Odyssey feels weaker than Aurora  (Read 4047 times)

Killer of Fate

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Re: Odyssey feels weaker than Aurora
« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2024, 04:22:36 PM »

@Thaago

I have a second Aurora build that is more akin to the function you're building towards, and the thing about it... (this build was never finalised however)

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Is that I simply prefer to use the small slots at the front for energy weapons, as even though you can achieve really high burst, strike capabilities are only as good as long as you get to actually pierce the veil. Otherwise, it's just wasted potential. Building a ship entirely around strike damage can work, I suppose. It obviously does... But in the case of Aurora, you need some sustained presence to get into the context of actually performing a strike attack...

Which is why I tend to pair standard high damaging tools with some typical sustained warfare... This allows me to save OP, spend that flux wherever I need, and with the justification to have all that flux, the ship also gains the ability to more rapidly reflux after taking significant damage by participating in combat.

And do not underestimate the value of PD. 2 Burst lasers are no way near enough, especially when you get into close quarters. Even something like a Talon can do very significant damage to an Aurora. And for eg. having 3 Burst Lasers pointing, being able to shoot down Sabots before they trigger, can be a very convenient thing... But eh, what do I know.
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Siffrin

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Re: Odyssey feels weaker than Aurora
« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2024, 05:06:21 PM »

I don't see why it needs to be 5 DP more expensive than the average capital but I'm still happy with it as my flagship.
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Gods most reckless Odyssey captain.

Killer of Fate

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Re: Odyssey feels weaker than Aurora
« Reply #17 on: May 25, 2024, 05:25:42 PM »

I don't see why it needs to be 5 DP more expensive than the average capital but I'm still happy with it as my flagship.
8 speed
hangar bays
a lot of OP for a fast moving High Tech ship with relatively few weaknesses (compare to Retribution which has a lot of OP but a lot of weaknesses)
good logistical traits

It's basically a combat freighter
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Juno

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Re: Odyssey feels weaker than Aurora
« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2024, 05:35:06 PM »

Those ships are good/very good, but the AI can hardly pilot them "right". And thank god for that. Fighting an AI that would be as good at kiting and repositioning as the player would not be fun at all.

I actually disagree, it would be fun and very challenging to fight!

Although balancing a good AI is no small task, since its reaction is instant for a meatbag, you got to make it slow enough for humans to feel competitive :)
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Phenir

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Re: Odyssey feels weaker than Aurora
« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2024, 05:49:01 PM »

Those ships are good/very good, but the AI can hardly pilot them "right". And thank god for that. Fighting an AI that would be as good at kiting and repositioning as the player would not be fun at all.

I actually disagree, it would be fun and very challenging to fight!

Although balancing a good AI is no small task, since its reaction is instant for a meatbag, you got to make it slow enough for humans to feel competitive :)
Trust me, it is not fun to chase AI ships all around the map when they refuse to engage and the odyssey would one of the worst of them if it did. It outguns anything that can catch it and outruns anything that can kill it, except like the nova I guess.
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Selfcontrol

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Re: Odyssey feels weaker than Aurora
« Reply #20 on: May 25, 2024, 05:53:14 PM »

I don't see why it needs to be 5 DP more expensive than the average capital but I'm still happy with it as my flagship.

Because it is a fast battlecruiser that can mount the most flux hungry and deadly weapons in the game without any problem on top of having a mobility system that synergizes extremely well with its broadside configuration ? (seriously, it can circles around most other capitals like a shark, never be threatened while pounding them with whatever big guns you put on it).

And for whatever reason, it also has a medium missile mount with generous firing arc (= Reaper) and a large synergy mount which can house whatever large guided missile you wish. Oh, it also has 2 fighter bays meaning you can either get good flux free PD with Xyphos or go with more aggressive options.

Quote
I actually disagree, it would be fun and very challenging to fight!

Not really.

Don't know if you ever played with the Knights of Ludd mod, but there's a couple of boss-type fights like that, boss ships which use their mobility to their fullest. I managed to beat them by putting my ships in a losange pattern formation by using civilian rally points and letting them come to me because it's impossible to catch them and they pick off your ships one at a time and then retreat. You are powerless against that because their mobility is far superior to yours, at least when compared to vanilla ships. Better castle up.

But it's not "funny" to face. Your ships are not moving at all because that's how civilian rally points work. The battle has no flow, no cinematic feeling or moment. It's just gimmicky :/

Still a great mod. Lots of creativity.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2024, 06:00:16 PM by Selfcontrol »
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Killer of Fate

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Re: Odyssey feels weaker than Aurora
« Reply #21 on: May 25, 2024, 06:03:17 PM »

Those ships are good/very good, but the AI can hardly pilot them "right". And thank god for that. Fighting an AI that would be as good at kiting and repositioning as the player would not be fun at all.

I actually disagree, it would be fun and very challenging to fight!

Although balancing a good AI is no small task, since its reaction is instant for a meatbag, you got to make it slow enough for humans to feel competitive :)
Trust me, it is not fun to chase AI ships all around the map when they refuse to engage and the odyssey would one of the worst of them if it did. It outguns anything that can catch it and outruns anything that can kill it, except like the nova I guess.
you're right, we should nerf Radiant.

the reason it's hard to kill something like that is cause every single mobility focused aspect in the game carries a general significant nerf to the ship itself. Heavily favouring fat bricks over hit and run ships. Whilst I understand that a fat brick should be able to kill a fast moving ship that engages it in direct combat, it shouldn't be able to do so... Almost instantly. And without even having its shields pierced... WHEN IT'S A LOW TECH SHIP

So, when you apply that kind of logic to fast ship design, you don't even have anything that can counter a fast ship when it even appears. Claws are dumb, Furies are dumb, Afflictors are dumb, Tempest is dumb... Kite is dumb... Eagle is dumb... Everything is either fast but not really or fast but has a 20 degrees shield with 1.8 flux per damage. Which is why nothing can kill a Radiant, which is why you don't want Odyssey to be good, or Conquest, or anything...

Changing how Battlecruisers work would merit SIGNIFICANT balance changes because it would have ripple effects on the ENTIRETY of the game... So, you are correct... Somewhat... But the problem is that it's a sooner or later situation. Sooner or later Battlecruisers will get buffed... Or sooner or later we are going to realise that Radiant is dumb... And then nerf it... And then maybe there will be peace. But sooner or later people will get bored of just using slow moving fat ships, and will maybe even mod Conquest to not be bad... And then... The whole game will implode in on itself as its balancing shifts and turns like the sea affected by a giant moon standing right outside your door.

Sorry for rambling, I'm sleepy...
« Last Edit: May 25, 2024, 06:13:38 PM by Killer of Fate »
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Juno

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Re: Odyssey feels weaker than Aurora
« Reply #22 on: May 25, 2024, 06:44:00 PM »

The topic got me to get back to tinkering.

This Aurora 1v3 Dominators from sim with no hull damage in about 2 minutes.
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Can achieve similar results with 1-2 Ion Pulsers instead of HBs - kills low tech bricks slower, but shines against Ordos.
Can also run a full Pulse + IR Pulse without SO, she can also kite and kill all 3, but takes forever  :-\
« Last Edit: May 25, 2024, 07:27:09 PM by Juno »
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FooF

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Re: Odyssey feels weaker than Aurora
« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2024, 07:12:07 PM »

I'm actually using both an Aurora and Odyssey in this playthrough and, in general, the Odyssey is better but not 50% better that its DP suggests. Aurora has "Strike" capability via missiles and AMBs but the Odyssey absolutely outshines it in the damage department with dual-Plasma Cannons. What has already been pointed out though, and I agree with, is that Aurora now has more effective shield HP than the Odyssey. Just taking base stats, it's 18333 vs 15000 in favor of the Aurora. If you max Capacitors to factor in the Capital's +20 extra, it's 28333  vs 25000. The Odyssey is a much bigger target and has a much larger shield arc and can't backpedal as well, either. So while the Odyssey can definitely outgun the Aurora, it can't actually out-tank it, which is kind of odd for a vessel that's 150% the cost.

The Aurora in my fleet right now has a .33 shield efficiency and 13300 capacity for an EHP of over 40,000. It only has 6 capacitors and doesn't even have Ordinance Expertise on the officer. The Odyssey (same Officer) has 33000 EHP. All that said, the Aurora at 30 DP is absolutely on the money in terms of cost. Yes, it's a top-tier Cruiser but it's still a Cruiser. It doesn't punch up very well and struggles against heavily armored or shielded targets.

Of the two, the Odyssey is the one that feels over-priced. My primary complaint about the Odyssey right now is that it's a one-trick pony. It can support dual Plasma Cannons and everything feels anemic compared. As I tried to put my finger on the primary issue it dawned on me that it doesn't have a secondary battery. It has two Large Energies supported by Smalls and everything else that can fire toward the primary side is a missile. If I had a suggestion, make one (or both) of the top Medium Missiles a Medium Synergy. A Phase Lance, a Heavy Blaster, an Ion Pulser, etc. would give the ship more options to support the Large Energies rather than make them literally all the work on the primary side. I would be more tempted to put in an Autopulse or HIL if I knew I could back it up with some Medium Assault weapons or an Ion Beam.

Alternatively (or maybe in addition), I think at least 1.0 shield efficiency hard to justify for it being a High Tech Capital and literally every other ship in its doctrinal orbit has 0.6. I suppose the theme is that Battlecruisers have terrible shields (1.4 for Conquest, 1.2 for Retribution, 1.0 for Odyssey) but the Conquest and Retribution bring a lot more firepower than the Odyssey and cost less. 0.8 shield efficiency brings it to parity with the Aurora, which I think is about fair.

Re: Aurora builds

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[close]

I'm actually using High Scatter Amplifier with 3x Phase Lance with 3x AMB as the KO punch. Triple IR Pulse do efficient Anti-Fighter/Shield duty but when the Phase Lances go off, they spike shields really well or burn armor. Sabots in the back to bring down shields. Even with Steady AI, it's pretty aggressive because all its range bands are pretty low. The Officer isn't even super great on it (wish he had Ordinance Expertise) but I've never lost it even fighting Ordos. I rarely give him orders and allow him to operate on the edge of the battlefield to draw off all sorts. Stabilized Shields as the 3rd S-Mod was an experiment to see if I could notice the 10% hard-to-soft flux conversion. If I didn't have BoTB, I'd drop the Front Shield.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2024, 07:29:48 PM by FooF »
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Juno

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Re: Odyssey feels weaker than Aurora
« Reply #24 on: May 25, 2024, 07:21:32 PM »

I tried to like HSA so much.
I mean, +15% damage just sits right there begging to get it.
But every time I try it on anything it just feels awkward and downright counterproductive. The range loss becomes seriously noticeable even on SO boats.
I can get better results without using it and wasting s-mod for it.

And yes, Odyssey feels insanely overpriced for what it does, and that is burning into enemy fleet and dying because 1.0 shield damage ratio is a joke, and without SO cannot back out with plasma burn like Aurora.

And the absence of Medium Energy slots really feels bad on Odyssey. I would love to back up those Autopulses with Heavy Blasters, like this guy
Spoiler
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Ever since I discovered how well AI handles flux with Autopulse + HB combo, I sold all my Plasma Cannons and Tachyons.

IMO Odysey is just trying to be everything at once - carrier, missile boat, assault - and fails miserably at all of it.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2024, 09:58:11 PM by Juno »
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eert5rty7u8i9i7u6yrewqdef

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Re: Odyssey feels weaker than Aurora
« Reply #25 on: May 25, 2024, 09:32:55 PM »

I don't see why it needs to be 5 DP more expensive than the average capital but I'm still happy with it as my flagship.
8 speed
hangar bays
a lot of OP for a fast moving High Tech ship with relatively few weaknesses (compare to Retribution which has a lot of OP but a lot of weaknesses)
good logistical traits

It's basically a combat freighter
This is the most accurate description of the Odyssey, and why people will always have a hard time of building it effectively.
It wants to be a combat freighter, to have a more supportive role rather than a true combat role.
Assuming you have the Omega missiles and a Reality Disrupter, the most effective Odyssey build I've found is three times Resonators, Rift Torpedo Launcher, RD in the front large energy, HIL in the back, and tactical lasers with built in IPDAI and Advanced Turret Gyros. With either of the Atropos bombers.
This is one of the major reasons why I suggested making DEMs regenerating, as it would drastically make long range Odyssey builds effective enough to justify using the ship under AI control.

I don't see why it needs to be 5 DP more expensive than the average capital but I'm still happy with it as my flagship.

Because it is a fast battlecruiser that can mount the most flux hungry and deadly weapons in the game without any problem on top of having a mobility system that synergizes extremely well with its broadside configuration ? (seriously, it can circles around most other capitals like a shark, never be threatened while pounding them with whatever big guns you put on it).

And for whatever reason, it also has a medium missile mount with generous firing arc (= Reaper) and a large synergy mount which can house whatever large guided missile you wish. Oh, it also has 2 fighter bays meaning you can either get good flux free PD with Xyphos or go with more aggressive options.
Its mobility system is the worst possible system, besides burn drive, for a broadside loadout as it has to turn away from its broadside to use that system and then turn back.
While the player can effectively use it, the player will be reliably fighting enemies with their engines pointed towards the enemy so they can use the system.
This is ignoring the current AI bug where the Odyssey almost always uses both of its charges even when the first gets it into range.

In a full fleet engagement, it can't circle around enemies or it risks getting pinned between the main enemy blob, and enemy re-enforcements.
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Lawrence Master-blaster

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Re: Odyssey feels weaker than Aurora
« Reply #26 on: May 25, 2024, 10:04:22 PM »

Of course Odyssey has "bad" EHP, it's a battlecruiser, they are supposed to be glass cannons. And Odyssey is one of the biggest cannons in the game - 1,500 DPS from two Plasma Cannons, that is almost 50% more than two Mjolnirs on the Conquest and (for comparison's sake) more DPS than the two TPCs on the Onslaught with infinite ammo. Plus one large and three medium missile slots.

It has same base speed as a Conquest that uses Maneuvering Jets on cooldown, 4 flux-free Ion Beams from the two hangar bays and an omnishield arc that actually fully covers the ship.

The main problem with Odyssey that I can see is that the AI that decides where it goes and the AI that decides when to use Plasma Burn seem to be two different AIs. Many times I've seen Odyssey trying to move away from the enemy only to repeatedly use Plasma Burn to get closer. Make up your mind! But that's not a problem limited to Odyssey, all Plasma Burn ships do this. Also, since all weapons are on the left, the AI will naturally drift towards the right side of the map.
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SCC

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Re: Odyssey feels weaker than Aurora
« Reply #27 on: May 25, 2024, 10:12:34 PM »

The main problem with Odyssey that I can see is that the AI that decides where it goes and the AI that decides when to use Plasma Burn seem to be two different AIs.
I vaguely recall that this is actually just true. Ship AI cannot activate a ship system on purpose, ship system AI instead picks whatever time is most appropriate based on the situation.

eert5rty7u8i9i7u6yrewqdef

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Re: Odyssey feels weaker than Aurora
« Reply #28 on: May 26, 2024, 01:13:17 AM »

Of course Odyssey has "bad" EHP, it's a battlecruiser, they are supposed to be glass cannons. And Odyssey is one of the biggest cannons in the game - 1,500 DPS from two Plasma Cannons, that is almost 50% more than two Mjolnirs on the Conquest and (for comparison's sake) more DPS than the two TPCs on the Onslaught with infinite ammo. Plus one large and three medium missile slots.

It has same base speed as a Conquest that uses Maneuvering Jets on cooldown, 4 flux-free Ion Beams from the two hangar bays and an omnishield arc that actually fully covers the ship.

The main problem with Odyssey that I can see is that the AI that decides where it goes and the AI that decides when to use Plasma Burn seem to be two different AIs. Many times I've seen Odyssey trying to move away from the enemy only to repeatedly use Plasma Burn to get closer. Make up your mind! But that's not a problem limited to Odyssey, all Plasma Burn ships do this. Also, since all weapons are on the left, the AI will naturally drift towards the right side of the map.
There's a hiccup in the retreat and vent AI. In previous versions ships frequently wouldn't back off and fully vent and would try to re-engage enemy ships at a flux disadvantage because they "felt" they were on a safe level of hardflux. Alex mostly fixed this issue, however under certain circumstances, the AI will again try to re-engage despite having not fully vented. This is most noticeable on burst forward speed ships like the Odyssey and Nova, but all of them uncommonly do it.
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Killer of Fate

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Re: Odyssey feels weaker than Aurora
« Reply #29 on: May 26, 2024, 01:50:54 AM »

I don't see why it needs to be 5 DP more expensive than the average capital but I'm still happy with it as my flagship.
8 speed
hangar bays
a lot of OP for a fast moving High Tech ship with relatively few weaknesses (compare to Retribution which has a lot of OP but a lot of weaknesses)
good logistical traits

It's basically a combat freighter
This is the most accurate description of the Odyssey, and why people will always have a hard time of building it effectively.
It wants to be a combat freighter, to have a more supportive role rather than a true combat role.
Assuming you have the Omega missiles and a Reality Disrupter, the most effective Odyssey build I've found is three times Resonators, Rift Torpedo Launcher, RD in the front large energy, HIL in the back, and tactical lasers with built in IPDAI and Advanced Turret Gyros. With either of the Atropos bombers.
This is one of the major reasons why I suggested making DEMs regenerating, as it would drastically make long range Odyssey builds effective enough to justify using the ship under AI control.
So, you want regenerating DEMs solely to have them be spammed from the other side of the map by a cowardly ship that also has enough mobility to never be caught??
You do realise that the reason why missiles have ammo is to prevent JUST THAT, so you asking for them to be infinite is like asking Shrike to have 550 armour.
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