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[Genir]

Autopilot Guardian takes down a 414 DP Remnant Ordo.

This is why you can't recover a Guardian! Tri-Tachyon tech is no match for Domain engineering.

VIDEO LINK

Mods used: Console Commands to obtain the Guardian, AI Tweaks (WIP version) to overhaul Guardian AI.

I plan to mod the Crysleeper encounter with this exact Guardian variant and AI, so all players can have fun defeating it.

[Lawrence Master-blaster]

Yeah... I understand that Guardian is supposed to be a "boss fight" but it's honestly too much. Ziggurat has an excuse(it's "permanently damaged" after the fight so not as powerful) but Guardian is just way too game-y.

This is especially weird considering you can also fight multiple Guardians as part of random Derelict bounty fleets. At this point it's like - huh? Why are these ships specifically so much better than everything else in the sector?

Really should be reined in.

[Genir]

Yeah... I understand that Guardian is supposed to be a "boss fight" but it's honestly too much. Ziggurat has an excuse(it's "permanently damaged" after the fight so not as powerful) but Guardian is just way too game-y.

This is especially weird considering you can also fight multiple Guardians as part of random Derelict bounty fleets. At this point it's like - huh? Why are these ships specifically so much better than everything else in the sector?

Really should be reined in.

It's the same reason as to why Tesseracts are so powerful. Lore wise - lost tech from bygone era/who knows from where. Gameplay wise - as you said, "boss fight". I don't see any problem here.

If you're talking in the context of the player fleet, then yes, Ziggurat has an excuse. Tesseracts and Guardians have no excuse, so you can't recover them. Again, no problem here.

Now, imagine the Guardian with a good build and non-suicidal AI (and smods and alpha AI core), as in the video. Or better yet, 3 or 4 at once. That's going to be a boss fight!

Buffing Guardian is not my real goal, though. I'm just using it as a stepping stone in developing custom ship AI. It's easier to start with OP ships and then go down to weaker ones, at least in my experiance.

[Lawrence Master-blaster]

Tasseracts absolutely do have an excuse - no one even knows what they are and where did they come from. They use exotic weapons no one else uses. For all we know they're made by aliens. Or more likely, developed by AI for AI. There are 5 in the entire game.

Guardians are supposed to be Derelicts, which are slow primitive drones, yet are super fast and better than everything else in the game for only 40 DP. They even get shields.

[Zsar]

I mean... vanilla Guardians just die? That's hardly what I'd call powerful? I had not even noticed they still have the respawning missiles, thought those had been replaced with Plasma Jets, (but after the video I checked and they do - not that it helps).

... In the video, for the whole first half of the combat, only two ships at a time engage the Guardian for some reason - once three+ ships engage, it rapidly loses hull - but by that time the Remnants have lost so many ships piecemeal that they run out. That is the oddest part of the video to me: Usually I'd expect them to swarm the thing and kill it, special loadout or not. It does not really look like the Guardian defeats them, more like they themselves throw the fight!

As foes, the "traditional champion" Radiant feels way more challenging to me than even those twin Guardians: Their support ships die immediately, then they get swarmed and overfluxed, then all their weapons get disabled, then they themselves blow up. Cause of most own ship losses: Flying too close to the Guardian when it pops.

[SCC]

I don't think Guardian should have infinite missiles (because it doesn't matter outside of derelict bounty fights, and in those fights, Guardian is used as a generic capital ship) or be unrecoverable. Outside of infinite missiles, it isn't that good. It's as fast as a Radiant, but it has less DPS and is less durable.

1 Guardian and a bunch of other capitals vs ordos

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AabJiRNcsIE

[close]

... In the video, for the whole first half of the combat, only two ships at a time engage the Guardian for some reason - once three+ ships engage, it rapidly loses hull - but by that time the Remnants have lost so many ships piecemeal that they run out. That is the oddest part of the video to me: Usually I'd expect them to swarm the thing and kill it, special loadout or not. It does not really look like the Guardian defeats them, more like they themselves throw the fight!

Yeah, Guardian there was pretty lucky the Remnant fleet was dispersed. Mostly lucky about Novas not having any backup.

[Genir]

... In the video, for the whole first half of the combat, only two ships at a time engage the Guardian for some reason - once three+ ships engage, it rapidly loses hull - but by that time the Remnants have lost so many ships piecemeal that they run out. That is the oddest part of the video to me: Usually I'd expect them to swarm the thing and kill it, special loadout or not. It does not really look like the Guardian defeats them, more like they themselves throw the fight!

True. That's the enemy fleet manager trying to be lean. It doesn't deploy the whole fleet when it sees the opposing force is only 40DP. From my observations, it tries to stay under 160DP. If Remnants deployed 240 DP from the beginning, the Guardian wouldn't stand a chance. It's still just one ship, even if with better loadout and AI.

[Zsar]

Incidentally, could you mayhap add a picture of the loadout?

I had not even noticed there was a Storm Needler in the back, until it casually swatted away a Glimmer that came too close. That was a pretty cool moment, although think I'd be too... stingy (hè) to place such an expensive weapon off the main cone of fire.

[Alex]

I don't think Guardian should have infinite missiles (because it doesn't matter outside of derelict bounty fights, and in those fights, Guardian is used as a generic capital ship) or be unrecoverable. Outside of infinite missiles, it isn't that good. It's as fast as a Radiant, but it has less DPS and is less durable.

The Guardian is in a bit of an odd spot - it's got a combination of range and speed that a ship "shouldn't" have, and that also does not make for a very compelling player ship, since ideally you'd just hover at the optimal range and pick things off. The AI is also set to reckless and does not make much use of this combination (in my experience, ships that do tend to be annoying to fight, though being a capital it's not *that* fast so it might be alright anyway).

I think to make it an interesting player ship, you'd need to do more than just removing infinite missiles. But I'm not so sure it'd make sense to make available to the player given it's backstory; I'll have to think about that.

[Phenir]

I think to make it an interesting player ship, you'd need to do more than just removing infinite missiles. But I'm not so sure it'd make sense to make available to the player given it's backstory; I'll have to think about that.

The guardian suffers irreversible battle damage, rendering its missile forge inoperable and its plasma jets can only activate in bursts (converting it to plasma burn). And give it the unrestoreable tag if you want since it's domain tech.

[SCC]

Guardian with Plasma Burn would be just a significantly worse Radiant, instead of a somewhat worse Radiant.

[Phenir]

Guardian with Plasma Burn would be just a significantly worse Radiant, instead of a somewhat worse Radiant.

It also costs 40 dp so yeah, being a worse radiant isn't exactly a bad goal to hit.

[SCC]

But then you might as well get a Nova.

[Killer of Fate]

Guardian with Plasma Burn would be just a significantly worse Radiant, instead of a somewhat worse Radiant.

It also costs 40 dp so yeah, being a worse radiant isn't exactly a bad goal to hit.

it costs 40 dp, cause it needs to make up for Derelicts being generally bad, but also let them deploy. If Guardian costed more, it would eat too much DP and cause a large fleet of Derelicts to simply not deploy until they are destroyed, which would in turn make Derelicts useless. Cause their only job is to be a distraction, because they lack kill potential.

(you can see this happen if you have High Tech Tri-Tachyon fleets even with DP advantage. Or Luddic Church. Deploying Astrals, Paragons, Invicti will drain their DP and then make their escorts go to waste, because they will either die too early to escort or deploy only after core ships were destroyed. Making them useless)

In order to make a Guardian abductable imo, I think it would need to have less op, removed Advanced Targeting Core. Keep its speed, but maybe change Hybrid Slots at the front to Ballistic (or maybe energy, it would be the only Midline ship in the game focused around roaming with Large Energy). Give it 1.4 shields. And obviously remove its Missile Autoforge.

Its DP should also be increased to 50-60 then. But if that was done, then other Derelicts would need buffs. A thorough increase of armour, durability, flux stats. And then a change of how AI deploys ships to prevent it from overspending DP on capitals causing it to not be able to utilise escorts would solve this... But eh, theoretically.

[Phenir]

Guardian with Plasma Burn would be just a significantly worse Radiant, instead of a somewhat worse Radiant.

It also costs 40 dp so yeah, being a worse radiant isn't exactly a bad goal to hit.

it costs 40 dp, cause it needs to make up for Derelicts being generally bad, but also let them deploy. If Guardian cost more, it would eat too much DP and cause a large fleet of Derelicts to simply not deploy until they are destroyed, which would in turn make Derelicts useless. Cause their only job is to be a distraction, because they lack kill potential.

Except the guardian has been around since before contact bounties were a thing.

But then you might as well get a Nova.

Nova doesn't have 200 degree shields, or 2 large missiles, or advanced targeting core, or 1700 armor, or.... you get my point?