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Author Topic: Give base Brawlers built-in Escort Package  (Read 599 times)

Rusty Edge

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Give base Brawlers built-in Escort Package
« on: May 12, 2024, 04:44:48 PM »

Every variant of the Brawler has a strong identity and niche use on the battlefield.

Tri Tacheon brawlers excel in stealth fleets with their built in insulated assembly, their extra O.P. gives them access to more powerful loadouts

Luddic path brawlers are the ultimate Vangaurd forces. Decimating frigates and generally shining in the first few minutes of combat.

Dictat brawlers are great if you hate your own men and want them to die.

Base brawlers need Escort Package. They are designed specifically with escort in mind. Lore wise, their description says that they have a destroyer grade generator, which could explain why they're the only frigate that can equip Escort Package.

It doesn't make them too powerful compared to other brawlers, because they can't act independantly. But the base bonuses will beef them up enough to be useful while escorting cruisers or carriers. The Smod bonus would give them a little more time face tanking as the escort ai encorages them to do.
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Juno

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Re: Give base Brawlers built-in Escort Package
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2024, 07:30:09 PM »

But it's actually working best (double bonus) for Destroyers, not Frigate for some reason.
And yes, throwing in Escort pack on Monitors, Brawlers, etc would really make a nice niche for the player.
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Bungee_man

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Re: Give base Brawlers built-in Escort Package
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2024, 01:50:32 PM »

The non-LP brawler is in a bit of a strange place, and the LP brawler is well-known to be fairly OP, especially in groups. Giving the base variant escort package might give it a good niche.

But it's actually working best (double bonus) for Destroyers, not Frigate for some reason.
And yes, throwing in Escort pack on Monitors, Brawlers, etc would really make a nice niche for the player.

Destroyers need the extra boost - frigates are viable without it. Space sims value speed and range above all else - frigates have the former innately, but destroyers have neither. A lot of the Paragon and Guardian's power comes from having better range than everything else.
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Rusty Edge

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Re: Give base Brawlers built-in Escort Package
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2024, 03:05:31 PM »

Destroyer level bonuses would give it range to match a cruiser, which would be neat. But even the base bonuses would be great if it came built in.

As is, Brawler seems outshined by Lashers and Centurions n the escort role. Lasher outguns it, and can even match it's range with the right build, whereas the Centurion is more capable of face-tanking. And ofcourse both of these cheaper ships provide good point defense at that.
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Thaago

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Re: Give base Brawlers built-in Escort Package
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2024, 03:24:59 PM »

The Lasher is significantly worse than the Brawler due to its defenses being very poor. It has a 1.0 shield, poor flux stats, and 300 armor - it just can't take fire even from good frigates not to mention anything bigger.
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Fenrir

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Re: Give base Brawlers built-in Escort Package
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2024, 03:46:53 PM »

The Lasher is significantly worse than the Brawler due to its defenses being very poor. It has a 1.0 shield, poor flux stats, and 300 armor - it just can't take fire even from good frigates not to mention anything bigger.
Lasher is 4dp, tho brawler is also only 5
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Selfcontrol

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Re: Give base Brawlers built-in Escort Package
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2024, 04:08:17 AM »

Destroyer level bonuses would give it range to match a cruiser, which would be neat. But even the base bonuses would be great if it came built in.

As is, Brawler seems outshined by Lashers and Centurions n the escort role. Lasher outguns it, and can even match it's range with the right build, whereas the Centurion is more capable of face-tanking. And ofcourse both of these cheaper ships provide good point defense at that.

Escort Package was created because most destroyers were very bad in lategame because, unlike frigates, they were not agile enough to avoid being destroyed by whatever cruiser decided to focus them. Destroyers were mostly cruisers--. Hence the increased range, maneuverability and shield efficiency from Escort Package.

If Escort Package is made available for frigates, it should give different buffs than those given to destroyers. If not, most destroyers will be made useless again.
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Rusty Edge

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Re: Give base Brawlers built-in Escort Package
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2024, 05:29:28 AM »

Escort Package was created because most destroyers were very bad in lategame because, unlike frigates, they were not agile enough to avoid being destroyed by whatever cruiser decided to focus them. Destroyers were mostly cruisers--. Hence the increased range, maneuverability and shield efficiency from Escort Package.

If Escort Package is made available for frigates, it should give different buffs than those given to destroyers. If not, most destroyers will be made useless again.

Of the frigates, only the base Brawler should have it. All the other frigates work well in their own functions. Whereas the Brawler seems to struggle, in much the same way Destroyers do.
 It's the second slowest frigate in the game, only outrunning the Monitor and the Shepherd(both of these frigates well compensate for their lack of speed). It is only really useful in an escort roll, but doesn't have the toughness or range to contribute.
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Zsar

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Re: Give base Brawlers built-in Escort Package
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2024, 09:22:06 AM »

Mmh. I am not opposed to the suggestion itself, but are base Brawlers not perfectly fine?

They are definitely among the better frigates and e.g. way more survivable than the Vigilance, even after its speed buff.
(I think, because the Vigilance must choose between a loadout that can burst away would-be attackers and one that can meaningfully contribute to fleet combat, whereas the Brawlers can use their ship system to disengage most superior foes and have two more slots to better balance their loadout.)

I am quite happy to pick those up on a new game and give them e.g. 2x Heavy Autocannon, 2x Light Mortar and Armoured Weapon Mounts. As all their slots are hardpoints, they are accurate enough to hit anything of frigate size+, only fighters and missiles tend to put them in trouble.
I usually add Omni Shield Conversion as well, as their very wide shield is barely inconvenienced by the penalty and this makes the ships less likely to manically turn towards stray missiles, trying to protect their shield gap.

... They tend to last until I consciously replace them - unlike aforementioned Lashers whose poor survivability makes them de facto worse fleet combatants than Hounds and Cerberusses. Does not feel that weak to me.
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Bungee_man

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Re: Give base Brawlers built-in Escort Package
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2024, 09:25:59 PM »

Mmh. I am not opposed to the suggestion itself, but are base Brawlers not perfectly fine?
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I don't think I've ever seen them used in an effective late-game fleet. They also aren't very threatening in AI hands.

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They are definitely among the better frigates and e.g. way more survivable than the Vigilance, even after its speed buff.

The Vigilance isn't the benchmark here - it's one of the least-used frigates for a reason.

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I am quite happy to pick those up on a new game and give them e.g. 2x Heavy Autocannon, 2x Light Mortar and Armoured Weapon Mounts. As all their slots are hardpoints, they are accurate enough to hit anything of frigate size+, only fighters and missiles tend to put them in trouble.

A good loadout for the LP brawler, which is definitely somewhat OP thanks to AAF, but base brawler is a bit more limited in what it can do there, particularly as fights start getting more intense and closing in with those kinds of weapons gets dangerous. They can't really screen missiles/fighters like an Omen, nor can they close in like an Afflictor in more challenging fights.
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