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Author Topic: High tech feels like a wet noodle.  (Read 11102 times)

eert5rty7u8i9i7u6yrewqdef

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Re: High tech feels like a wet noodle.
« Reply #90 on: May 17, 2024, 11:34:16 AM »

It's fine as is, you're just building it wrong. Same as all phase skimmer ships, Medusas need an officer with system expertise. Once you have that, they are functionally immortal, and can kill almost all non-capitals in the game.
The main issue with Medusas is one shared with all multi-charge mobility-system systems: The AI blows its wad in one go, saving nothing for its nonexistent exit plan, and then dies. The choice of when the AI phase skims and where it skims to can be a little amusing, too: I once watched a Radiant use its skimmer to teleport away from my incoming fire...right into its own Reapers that it had just fired, immediately self-deleting.
It's fine as is, you're just building it wrong. Same as all phase skimmer ships, Medusas need an officer with system expertise. Once you have that, they are functionally immortal, and can kill almost all non-capitals in the game.
The main issue with Medusas is one shared with all multi-charge mobility-system systems: The AI blows its wad in one go, saving nothing for its nonexistent exit plan, and then dies. The choice of when the AI phase skims and where it skims to can be a little amusing, too: I once watched a Radiant use its skimmer to teleport away from my incoming fire...right into its own Reapers that it had just fired, immediately self-deleting.
Phase skimming is determined by the direction the craft is currently moving, meaning slower ships with less acceleration are more likely to teleport in the wrong direction.
The Medusa and Wolf largely do not have this issue as both craft are relatively nimble.
Furthermore, while both will use their teleports to get into range, they will not use it once near the enemies maximum range. As such a system expertise Medusa will never be lacking phase charges to escape with. This is actually a problem when pursuing enemies as they fairly reliably will not teleport into their weapon range, same as Plasma Jets.

I can go back and root around in my old saves to give you immortal Medusa builds if you want, or you can just look at some of the recent Ordo hunting videos which use Medusas.

The Omen is overpowered and should be nerfed (8 DP instead of 6). It's not "okay". It's the best frigate in the game (yes it's better than a Glimmer, by far).

System Expertise and Elite Target Analysis turn its EMP Emitter into the best anti-frigate and anti-destroyer weapon in the game (reminder that EMP Emitter deals energy damage too, not just EMP damage). A couple of them will also slaughter any cruiser that doesn't have a 360 degree shield.

It's also tiny (making it suprisingly hard to hit), has more than enough speed (especially since there is no reason to not put Unstable Engine on it), has a great Flux Capacity that can be maxed out for maximum tanking power and a 0.6 shield flux/damage ratio.
Assuming the enemy ship drops their shield, doesn't have shields, or the Omen finds an area without shield coverage. It's not as good as it should be as it won't use its system against shielded enemies, which drastically reduces its damage potential. It may accidently use its system against shielded enemies thanks to enemy missiles or fighters coming into range.
Furthermore, the most viable multi-role build of it, i.e. any anti-matter blaster build, is so close range that it tends to block friendly ships from firing on enemy ships. This is especially noticeable when the friendly ships are using phase lance or tachyon lance.
Lastly, its system by itself isn't very good as PD, and requires at minimum the SE, PD, TA skills. Some missiles really require IPDAI as well. Even then it has a terrible tendency of just stunning and slightly cooking fighters like broadswords, requiring additional PD from other ships to deal the killing blow.

It's fine at 6. Even if its system usage was fixed, it still wouldn't be worth more than 6 due to its poor weapons layout, and heavy investment needed to make it useful.
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Thaago

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Re: High tech feels like a wet noodle.
« Reply #91 on: May 17, 2024, 12:01:53 PM »

Playing high tech right now and I have to defend the Shrike as a budget early game ship. Is it end-game ordo-smashing optimal? It's not awful, but also nothing special, so I'd say no and leave it out of end game fleets.

But it's so cheap (as cheap or cheaper than some frigates), burn 10, requires no skills to work pretty well, and brings a medium missile mount for reapers to break pirate armor-bricks. It's high tech's economy car.
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Selfcontrol

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Re: High tech feels like a wet noodle.
« Reply #92 on: May 17, 2024, 12:22:52 PM »

Quote
Assuming the enemy ship drops their shield, doesn't have shields, or the Omen finds an area without shield coverage. It's not as good as it should be as it won't use its system against shielded enemies, which drastically reduces its damage potential. It may accidently use its system against shielded enemies thanks to enemy missiles or fighters coming into range.

The AI is absolutely more conservative when enemy ships have their shields up, but Omens do use their system even when there is no missiles or fighters.

And in battle, there is so much things going on that Omens almost always find an area without coverage anyway. Between ships repositioning themselves, the speed of an Omen, flameouts, ships dropping their shield because of flux level, rarity of 360 degrees shields, I've never find it to be a problem.

Quote
Lastly, its system by itself isn't very good as PD, and requires at minimum the SE, PD, TA skills. Some missiles really require IPDAI as well. Even then it has a terrible tendency of just stunning and slightly cooking fighters like broadswords, requiring additional PD from other ships to deal the killing blow.

It's fine that its sytem isn't 100% reliable at killing fighters and missiles. Many times a Flak "failed" me at destroying a reaper torpedo coming at me from long range. It happens. It's still very reliable.

As for the required investment, yeah, it requires an officer and some hullmods. Big deal. But the game already heavily incentivizes the player to build a fleet around the officer cap unless you run Support Doctrine and/or Derelict Operations. And sure, Support Doctrine Omens aren't amazing, but other ships also need an officer to really shine (looking at you, phase ships).
« Last Edit: May 17, 2024, 12:25:30 PM by Selfcontrol »
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prav

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Re: High tech feels like a wet noodle.
« Reply #93 on: May 17, 2024, 12:35:33 PM »

Playing high tech right now and I have to defend the Shrike as a budget early game ship. Is it end-game ordo-smashing optimal? It's not awful, but also nothing special, so I'd say no and leave it out of end game fleets.

But it's so cheap (as cheap or cheaper than some frigates), burn 10, requires no skills to work pretty well, and brings a medium missile mount for reapers to break pirate armor-bricks. It's high tech's economy car.

One catch with the early-game Shrike is that it has real trouble with Colossus 3s - a few wings of Broadswords and Talons will kill one very quickly. Extended shields help, but only a bit.
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Juno

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Re: High tech feels like a wet noodle.
« Reply #94 on: May 17, 2024, 12:35:47 PM »

Playing high tech right now and I have to defend the Shrike as a budget early game ship. Is it end-game ordo-smashing optimal? It's not awful, but also nothing special, so I'd say no and leave it out of end game fleets.

But it's so cheap (as cheap or cheaper than some frigates), burn 10, requires no skills to work pretty well, and brings a medium missile mount for reapers to break pirate armor-bricks. It's high tech's economy car.

Granted, Reapers are always welcome addition, and there are so many pirate Shrikes to snatch.
But the game pacing is kind of quick. After a few salvage runs and some Tri Tach rep farming with system bounties I rock good bank and just buy Hyperions and Auroras. So the Shrike phase quickly dwindles kinda.
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eert5rty7u8i9i7u6yrewqdef

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Re: High tech feels like a wet noodle.
« Reply #95 on: May 17, 2024, 02:12:37 PM »

Quote
Assuming the enemy ship drops their shield, doesn't have shields, or the Omen finds an area without shield coverage. It's not as good as it should be as it won't use its system against shielded enemies, which drastically reduces its damage potential. It may accidently use its system against shielded enemies thanks to enemy missiles or fighters coming into range.

The AI is absolutely more conservative when enemy ships have their shields up, but Omens do use their system even when there is no missiles or fighters.

And in battle, there is so much things going on that Omens almost always find an area without coverage anyway. Between ships repositioning themselves, the speed of an Omen, flameouts, ships dropping their shield because of flux level, rarity of 360 degrees shields, I've never find it to be a problem.

Quote
Lastly, its system by itself isn't very good as PD, and requires at minimum the SE, PD, TA skills. Some missiles really require IPDAI as well. Even then it has a terrible tendency of just stunning and slightly cooking fighters like broadswords, requiring additional PD from other ships to deal the killing blow.

It's fine that its sytem isn't 100% reliable at killing fighters and missiles. Many times a Flak "failed" me at destroying a reaper torpedo coming at me from long range. It happens. It's still very reliable.

As for the required investment, yeah, it requires an officer and some hullmods. Big deal. But the game already heavily incentivizes the player to build a fleet around the officer cap unless you run Support Doctrine and/or Derelict Operations. And sure, Support Doctrine Omens aren't amazing, but other ships also need an officer to really shine (looking at you, phase ships).
It's not "more conservative" it flat out won't use its system against shields alone. Which is a problem when it gets into duels with certain frigates and destroyers, as it can get stuck fighting them but never actually killing them.
Likewise, one PD Shrike with burst lasers and a Wasp wing outperforms two Omens in the PD escort department.
It's fine at six DP and doesn't need any nerfs.

Playing high tech right now and I have to defend the Shrike as a budget early game ship. Is it end-game ordo-smashing optimal? It's not awful, but also nothing special, so I'd say no and leave it out of end game fleets.

But it's so cheap (as cheap or cheaper than some frigates), burn 10, requires no skills to work pretty well, and brings a medium missile mount for reapers to break pirate armor-bricks. It's high tech's economy car.
It works in endgame fleets so long as it's not in a direct combat role. It doesn't have enough range, speed, or shields to be a brawler, but it has more than enough OP for various support builds.
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Thaago

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Re: High tech feels like a wet noodle.
« Reply #96 on: May 17, 2024, 04:43:29 PM »

...

One catch with the early-game Shrike is that it has real trouble with Colossus 3s - a few wings of Broadswords and Talons will kill one very quickly. Extended shields help, but only a bit.

I agree completely! If I can snag the hullmods early enough I always put front shield conversion and extended shields on it to get up to 360. Unlike the Medusa it doesn't need any S mods to pull it off.

Speaking of Medusa shields: for those who haven't tried it before, you can get them to 360 with front shields + S mods extended. It turns it from an unreliable 120 degree omni-shield to a great 360. Both ships have good shields, but the Medusa with a .6 before skills/hullmods + good base flux + a phase skimmer is just so hard to kill! For numbers, the Medusa I'm using have 22k effective shield HP with hullmods (hardened and S mod front, 20 caps) but not counting any skills/CR.

(Also Wolf, s mod extended shields brings it to 270 shield arc which is not great but it means that it doesn't die the instant a Talon looks at it funny at least.)

...
Granted, Reapers are always welcome addition, and there are so many pirate Shrikes to snatch.
But the game pacing is kind of quick. After a few salvage runs and some Tri Tach rep farming with system bounties I rock good bank and just buy Hyperions and Auroras. So the Shrike phase quickly dwindles kinda.

I agree with this too, though I personally don'y like hyperions (they never seem to perform as much as they cost for me). I tend to keep my shrikes around as backup ships even later, though I won't restore them and will scrap them once they've picked up too many D mods.
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Phenir

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Re: High tech feels like a wet noodle.
« Reply #97 on: May 17, 2024, 05:23:32 PM »

Hyperions will probably be a lot better once this targeting bug gets fixed.
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Killer of Fate

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Re: High tech feels like a wet noodle.
« Reply #98 on: May 18, 2024, 04:36:56 AM »

Playing high tech right now and I have to defend the Shrike as a budget early game ship. Is it end-game ordo-smashing optimal? It's not awful, but also nothing special, so I'd say no and leave it out of end game fleets.

But it's so cheap (as cheap or cheaper than some frigates), burn 10, requires no skills to work pretty well, and brings a medium missile mount for reapers to break pirate armor-bricks. It's high tech's economy car.
One catch with the early-game Shrike is that it has real trouble with Colossus 3s - a few wings of Broadswords and Talons will kill one very quickly. Extended shields help, but only a bit.
Use PCL...

But tbh, building a Shrike around a shield will always fail. That thing is only good at punching down or equal. Or maybe adding damage to an already armed brigade. Otherwise it will get easily overwhelmed. Get stuck and die.

Currently just Ion Beam + Tactical Lasers + Missiles work for me. I could probably use it with SO, but using SO would break my Luddic vow, so no no no...
« Last Edit: May 18, 2024, 10:09:53 AM by Killer of Fate »
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Princess_of_Evil

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Re: High tech feels like a wet noodle.
« Reply #99 on: May 18, 2024, 08:27:54 AM »

Properly built HT fleets will just rush the kinetic fleet and promptly die because the moment a high-tech ship runs out of shield durability it just dies. A lower-tech fleet will literally just bumrush the retreating ships with Burn Drive and burn them down as HT futilely tries to punch through actual armor. Even AI does this. And it's not like HT is midline, who has the best lateral ship system on the planet.
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Phenir

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Re: High tech feels like a wet noodle.
« Reply #100 on: May 18, 2024, 08:29:46 AM »

Disagree. Prorerpely built HT fleets will just rush the kinetic fleet
And properly built low tech will shut them out with wall of kinetics and superior range. The high tech fleet will either not be able to approach and die from CR or take too much damage retreating out of ballistic range when they get fluxed out. But we aren't facing "properly" built fleets. We face autofit fleets with probably subpar loadout goals.
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Killer of Fate

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Re: High tech feels like a wet noodle.
« Reply #101 on: May 18, 2024, 11:40:42 AM »

Properly built HT fleets will just rush the kinetic fleet and promptly die because the moment a high-tech ship runs out of shield durability it just dies. A lower-tech fleet will literally just bumrush the retreating ships with Burn Drive and burn them down as HT futilely tries to punch through actual armor. Even AI does this. And it's not like HT is midline, who has the best lateral ship system on the planet.
the irony of Onslaught's biggest weakness supposedly being mobility and then it being probably faster than a Conquest if it comes to chasing enemies down is so funny.

Though Onslaught and Legion are supposed to be practical compared to Invictus, so it makes sense I guess... Lore-wise at least.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2024, 11:42:14 AM by Killer of Fate »
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Thaago

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Re: High tech feels like a wet noodle.
« Reply #102 on: May 18, 2024, 11:55:37 AM »

...
Use PCL...

But tbh, building a Shrike around a shield will always fail. That thing is only good at punching down or equal. Or maybe adding damage to an already armed brigade. Otherwise it will get easily overwhelmed. Get stuck and die.

Currently just Ion Beam + Tactical Lasers + Missiles work for me. I could probably use it with SO, but using SO would break my Luddic vow, so no no no...

Mmm, I disagree very much. Shrikes have quite good shields at .7 (not as good as medusa .6, but still not bad), good base flux capacity, and because they are destroyers can have up to 20 caps, unlike frigates that are stuck at 10. They are light units for sure, but they are priced as such.

The one thing to do with Shrikes is NOT use a heavy blaster. No SO required, just use some combination of pulse laser/phase lance/ir pulse/ion/antimatter blaster. Almost any combination is fine. It gives them on the order of ~500-600 DPS depending on choices, with some good anti-armor options mixed in.
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Killer of Fate

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Re: High tech feels like a wet noodle.
« Reply #103 on: May 18, 2024, 12:19:01 PM »

...
Use PCL...

But tbh, building a Shrike around a shield will always fail. That thing is only good at punching down or equal. Or maybe adding damage to an already armed brigade. Otherwise it will get easily overwhelmed. Get stuck and die.

Currently just Ion Beam + Tactical Lasers + Missiles work for me. I could probably use it with SO, but using SO would break my Luddic vow, so no no no...

Mmm, I disagree very much. Shrikes have quite good shields at .7 (not as good as medusa .6, but still not bad), good base flux capacity, and because they are destroyers can have up to 20 caps, unlike frigates that are stuck at 10. They are light units for sure, but they are priced as such.

The one thing to do with Shrikes is NOT use a heavy blaster. No SO required, just use some combination of pulse laser/phase lance/ir pulse/ion/antimatter blaster. Almost any combination is fine. It gives them on the order of ~500-600 DPS depending on choices, with some good anti-armor options mixed in.
It's complicated, but using Shrikes this way in the late game *** doesn't make much sense in the long run. Cause the standard enemies you'll encounter are tough cruiser/capital ship formations with destroyers being easy to swallow unless they are long ranged, hanging behind a cruiser. Whilst still effective, it's just that using 600 range weapons without Cruiser ITU of something like a Fury leaves them too exposed for standard threats. As with lack of true mobility they will get stuck and unable to retreat. Which significantly reduces their effectiveness, as Fury for eg. feels like it has far more shields to spare than a Shrike and durability too. In fact Fury is as fast as a Shrike, so it's just better...

I guess you could sacrifice all the Shrikes frontal weapons with the exception of medium mounts and concentrate on Pulse Laser fire. Or have something support a Phase Lance. But that would also run against typical synergy I'm trying to create. And I would rather have them act in the back as suppression, anti-fighter and missile tossing units. Though I believe Harpoons should receive a buff, as currently they're obviously a 10 times more unreliable Breach that easily get shot down, have less ammo and are usually used by NPCs to kill enemies that are already dead.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2024, 12:33:06 PM by Killer of Fate »
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Beep Boop

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Re: High tech feels like a wet noodle.
« Reply #104 on: May 18, 2024, 04:02:03 PM »

the irony of Onslaught's biggest weakness supposedly being mobility and then it being probably faster than a Conquest if it comes to chasing enemies down is so funny.
Basically everything the textlore says about Onslaughts is completely wrong, yes. Onslaught is one of the most mobile capital ships thanks to burn drive, and absolutely shreds fighters with its Devastator Cannons like no other. It's easily the least vulnerable capital ship to fighter attack, as well as one of the most mobile.
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