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Author Topic: High tech feels like a wet noodle.  (Read 11105 times)

majk

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High tech feels like a wet noodle.
« on: April 21, 2024, 11:25:26 AM »

I know, i know, high tech ships are great at dismantling slower out of position ships and bursting things down, but not everything can be a Nova.
With enough low/mid tech kinetic dakka you delete high tech shields and without them, those ships are made of paper.
On my current game made a killing developing Tri-tach contacts and farming their high tech bounties. It was incredible how much faster they die.

I have no idea how, or if they could be changed and to be honest, they DO work against slow ships without burn drives/enough speed but at this point, it just feels unfair to bully them. I kinda hope Tri-tach gets a rework at some point.
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Lawrence Master-blaster

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Re: High tech feels like a wet noodle.
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2024, 11:44:34 AM »

High tech is hit and run for the most part. AI cannot do that.
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Killer of Fate

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Re: High tech feels like a wet noodle.
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2024, 11:48:40 AM »

High tech is hit and run for the most part. AI cannot do that.
it's actually kinda good at it, it just needs a good ship. Normal high tech ships are... Ehem... Lore-friendly.
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Antelope Syrup

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Re: High tech feels like a wet noodle.
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2024, 12:06:04 PM »

My current fleet is all High tech, and it works really well. I run an Odyssey, 2 Furies, 2 Shrikes, and 4 Omens. Eats through low tech and midline fleets even with significant jumber advantages. That being said, I haven't faced a high tech fleet in a long time so maybe the AI actually isn't very good with them, which is weird because it seems to be doing fine on my side with my fleet.
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majk

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Re: High tech feels like a wet noodle.
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2024, 12:31:06 PM »

My current fleet is all High tech, and it works really well. I run an Odyssey, 2 Furies, 2 Shrikes, and 4 Omens. Eats through low tech and midline fleets even with significant jumber advantages. That being said, I haven't faced a high tech fleet in a long time so maybe the AI actually isn't very good with them, which is weird because it seems to be doing fine on my side with my fleet.
High tech ai is pretty good vs. Slower ships with less range. If your low tech junkers can burn drive forward or you stuff SO and UI mods the ai gets bursted down and butchered.
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eert5rty7u8i9i7u6yrewqdef

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Re: High tech feels like a wet noodle.
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2024, 01:09:41 PM »

I know, i know, high tech ships are great at dismantling slower out of position ships and bursting things down, but not everything can be a Nova.
With enough low/mid tech kinetic dakka you delete high tech shields and without them, those ships are made of paper.
On my current game made a killing developing Tri-tach contacts and farming their high tech bounties. It was incredible how much faster they die.

I have no idea how, or if they could be changed and to be honest, they DO work against slow ships without burn drives/enough speed but at this point, it just feels unfair to bully them. I kinda hope Tri-tach gets a rework at some point.
Good High-Tech ships to use are the TT Brawler, Omen, Tempest, Scarab for average PPT fleets or SO fleets, Hyperion for SO fleets, support Shrike, Medusa, support Apogee for slower fleets, Aurora, support/artillery Odyssey, and Paragon for slower fleets.

Middling High-Tech ships are the Wolf, Shrike, Apogee, Odyssey, and Astral.

The only really bad High-Tech ship is the Fury. It's just way too expensive for what it does.

Most High-Tech ships have a specific niche for how fast your fleet is and how much PPT they'll have. Trying to put a Scarab or Hyperion in a fleet of Paragons is obviously not going to work.
Some are way better in some roles than others. The obvious ships are the Shrike, Apogee, and Odyssey. They're direct fighting capabilities in the hands of the AI aren't great, however they work great when put in a support position. Give the Apogee and Odyssey HILs as Tachyon Lances won't fire if there are friendly ships anywhere nearby.
Due to being reliant on high flux weapons, their shields, and systems, High-Tech ships in general up-front benefit more from officers and s-mods than the other classes of ships.
For faster fleets Auroras will be your mainline brawlers.
For slower fleets, Paragons will be you mainline brawlers.

Tri-Tachyon and their bounties do not have strict fleet setups, which means they get a jumble of mismatched High-Tech ships and weapons. This dramatically decreases their combat effectiveness.
The other factions also suffer from the same issue, but to a lesser extent as pretty much all Low-Tech ships are slow with High PPT, and all midline ships are medium speed with medium PPT. Meaning they work better together.
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Thaago

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Re: High tech feels like a wet noodle.
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2024, 02:05:45 PM »

I know, i know, high tech ships are great at dismantling slower out of position ships and bursting things down, but not everything can be a Nova.
With enough low/mid tech kinetic dakka you delete high tech shields and without them, those ships are made of paper.
On my current game made a killing developing Tri-tach contacts and farming their high tech bounties. It was incredible how much faster they die.

I have no idea how, or if they could be changed and to be honest, they DO work against slow ships without burn drives/enough speed but at this point, it just feels unfair to bully them. I kinda hope Tri-tach gets a rework at some point.

Is it possible that you just have a fleet that is good at killing high-tech because you have a ton of kinetic weapons? Have you tried actually using high tech yourself, or is this just observations from killing bounties?
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Killer of Fate

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Re: High tech feels like a wet noodle.
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2024, 03:01:03 PM »

I know, i know, high tech ships are great at dismantling slower out of position ships and bursting things down, but not everything can be a Nova.
With enough low/mid tech kinetic dakka you delete high tech shields and without them, those ships are made of paper.
On my current game made a killing developing Tri-tach contacts and farming their high tech bounties. It was incredible how much faster they die.

I have no idea how, or if they could be changed and to be honest, they DO work against slow ships without burn drives/enough speed but at this point, it just feels unfair to bully them. I kinda hope Tri-tach gets a rework at some point.

Is it possible that you just have a fleet that is good at killing high-tech because you have a ton of kinetic weapons? Have you tried actually using high tech yourself, or is this just observations from killing bounties?

I think the whole point is that high tech can't counter kinetic... Which is what I have been saying in the past. If it comes to low tech and anti-armour solutions, it's a conversation. Most anti-armour can be countered with minor shields or PD. Hellbore gets absorbed by the Onslaught's shield. And the whole point of Low Tech is to have tons of PD to negate those missiles which are key in negating high armour.

High Tech works differently. If you are a ship that bases its durability on shields. And the enemy has tons of anti-shield weapons. You just lose. Which is why I thought kinetics were always kept at low. Sabot has limited damage, Storm Needler was awful. Small kinetics needed Ballistic Ragefinder. Now, em... Yeah... I think it doesn't work like that anymore.

High Tech ships are probably still really good. Because there is no "kinetic spam" faction of end game content, with maybe Omega working like that. Though they are rare. Remnants are mostly energy focused with some missile spam. But using shields against them is still probably very effective.

All of this is theory though, feel free to disagree.
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eert5rty7u8i9i7u6yrewqdef

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Re: High tech feels like a wet noodle.
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2024, 03:27:06 PM »

I know, i know, high tech ships are great at dismantling slower out of position ships and bursting things down, but not everything can be a Nova.
With enough low/mid tech kinetic dakka you delete high tech shields and without them, those ships are made of paper.
On my current game made a killing developing Tri-tach contacts and farming their high tech bounties. It was incredible how much faster they die.

I have no idea how, or if they could be changed and to be honest, they DO work against slow ships without burn drives/enough speed but at this point, it just feels unfair to bully them. I kinda hope Tri-tach gets a rework at some point.

Is it possible that you just have a fleet that is good at killing high-tech because you have a ton of kinetic weapons? Have you tried actually using high tech yourself, or is this just observations from killing bounties?

I think the whole point is that high tech can't counter kinetic...
They can get out of range easily and have access to weapons that prevent pursuing ships from using systems like burn drive. Ion Beam, HIL, and Pilums are all great examples. These weapons also force enemies to keep their shields up, resulting in a nice capacity to vent flux while the enemy can't.
Squall and Sabots can be destroyed fairly reliably by Burst PD assuming a little bit of investment has gone into PD.
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Thaago

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Re: High tech feels like a wet noodle.
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2024, 03:30:51 PM »

In terms of can't counter kinetic, I think it depends on the ship size.

High tech (non-phase) small ships have very very weak armor, so they must depend on their mobility, but thankfully they have it. For larger (cruiser +) high tech, while their armor is weaker than other tech levels, it is strong enough to stop kinetics. So they retain decent mobility and enemies still have to bring some anti-armor as well.

Then there is the elephant in the room: phase ships. Kinetic is a poor choice (in general, there are some minor exceptions) so mixing in phase ships with high tech makes the counter less obvious.
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prav

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Re: High tech feels like a wet noodle.
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2024, 04:28:30 PM »

Tritach fleets suck because their doctrine is quantity 1, officers 1, quality 5, which is more or less the worst setup possible. That they also focus on size 5 ships so the entire fleet budget gets eaten up by Dooms, Harbingers and Astrals doesn't help.

If they had some dmods but competent officers and 50% more ships they'd be a lot tougher.
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Selfcontrol

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Re: High tech feels like a wet noodle.
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2024, 05:14:50 PM »

Quote
On my current game made a killing developing Tri-tach contacts and farming their high tech bounties. It was incredible how much faster they die.

I never met a human fleet, be it TT or Heg or whatever that proved to be a challenge unless I voluntary gimp myself (EDIT : now that I remember the phase fleet from the Ziggurat questline is a decent challenge).

Human fleets suck in general once you have good game knowledge.

Even the Remnants are not much of a threat (at least single/double Ordos).

On top of that, TT has a bad doctrine. That doesn't help at all.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2024, 05:19:07 PM by Selfcontrol »
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FooF

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Re: High tech feels like a wet noodle.
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2024, 05:57:03 PM »

I mean, yeah, if you ultra-specialize in Kinetics, you'll defeat High Tech shields pretty quickly but that kind of setup isn't generally useful. Likewise, if you went all HE to deal with Low Tech armor.

Thing is, most High Tech ships pair strong shields with high mobility which means if you can't alpha their shields down, they just escape vent and repeat. It also doesn't hurt that many High Tech ships have pretty good shield efficiencies, which can be improved by skills and hullmods. If the ship you're shooting has a .4 shield efficiency and Elite Field Modulation, even Kinetics get seriously blunted. All I'm saying is the Kinetics aren't kryptonite to High Tech. They're effective, yes, but I wouldn't go so far to say it's a hard-counter. I'd say the same about high damage/shot HE against Low Tech. Reapers and Hellbores exist but Low Tech isn't made obsolete by them.

What I will concede is that a High Tech ship pinned down by Kinetics is much more vulnerable than Low Tech pinned down be strong HE. But High Tech doctrine is risky, opportunistic strikes. If they get caught out of position, they do pop pretty quickly. I think this is by design though because they tend to be slippery in the first place. Suffice to say, I think High Tech is fine.
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Bungee_man

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Re: High tech feels like a wet noodle.
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2024, 07:53:55 PM »

Tritach fleets suck because their doctrine is quantity 1, officers 1, quality 5, which is more or less the worst setup possible. That they also focus on size 5 ships so the entire fleet budget gets eaten up by Dooms, Harbingers and Astrals doesn't help.

If they had some dmods but competent officers and 50% more ships they'd be a lot tougher.

Yeah, officer quality doesn't really get as much visual hinting in the game as it really should. I remember being baffled as a newbie when I met my first fleet with competent officers after a few fights against unofficered fleets. They make a lot more difference than one might expect in a battle, but it takes a while to figure that out.
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prav

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Re: High tech feels like a wet noodle.
« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2024, 04:58:43 AM »

TT should mix in some AI officers on their most pristine ships. Make them not reckless for variety. AI ban? Are you going to forcibly board a Paragon?
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