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[BigBrainEnergy]

It isn't impossible to play with a flagship focus playstyle, it just feels uncompetitive for many people.

What I saw recently was a number of people complaining that cybernetic augmentation was too strong. I don't think so, but I think it is good. Grabbing 5 in leadership and technology lets you grab almost all the best fleetwide skills, and at that point putting your last 5 into combat is the best option even if you went for automated ships.

[Megas]

What I saw recently was a number of people complaining that cybernetic augmentation was too strong. I don't think so, but I think it is good. Grabbing 5 in leadership and technology lets you grab almost all the best fleetwide skills, and at that point putting your last 5 into combat is the best option even if you went for automated ships.

That is just it.  Leadership and Technology feel mandatory this release (and the last two releases too).  That leaves Combat and Industry optional.  Pick one of those two to dump, either Combat for (no flagship) units play or Industry for flagship play.  I feel like I shoot myself in the foot if I want Combat and Industry instead, then leave five left for either Leadership or Technology.

It is one reason (but not the only reason) why I have been dissatisfied with Starsector lately and yearn for a release with pre-0.8a combat but with the campaign/story/exploration and the ships and weapons availability of the latest release.

[SCC]

What I saw recently was a number of people complaining that cybernetic augmentation was too strong. I don't think so, but I think it is good. Grabbing 5 in leadership and technology lets you grab almost all the best fleetwide skills, and at that point putting your last 5 into combat is the best option even if you went for automated ships.

In my experience, it helps flagship and balanced playstyles get closer to the officer-focused playsyle power level.

[Megas]

In my experience, it helps flagship and balanced playstyles get closer to the officer-focused playsyle power level.

It looks like it, but player has to take Cybernetic Augmentation instead of Automated Ships unless player gets Neural Link too for flagship Radiant.  I feel dumb if I take Automated Ships (instead of Cybernetic Augmentation) if I do not commit to flagship Radiant (either by wanting to use whatever random ships - both Remnant and Derelicts - I find and recover and/or not getting Neural Link to enable flagship Radiant).

[Grievous69]

I usually only put a single point in Leadership (Crew training) and I really don't feel my fleets are any weaker for doing that. Last playthrough I went with BotB, it honestly felt annoying always needing to get more SPs. Can't remember if that one was in the previous version or this one but it doesn't matter that much. The point is I can take almost any combination of skills and have a good run with no problems. Hell one day I'd like to do a zero skill run, just for the experiment. Well maybe grabbing Navigation just so it doesn't take too long.

There are no mandatory skills in Starsector. If you're having a hard time deciding which skills to get, and how to get everything you want with the limit of 15 skill points then that's great. It means Alex did a great job balancing them.

For those that think Combat skills are not worthy, give them an actual shot and pilot your ship, even someone that sucks at the game mechanically can at least do a much better job of clicking the left mouse button to fire the missiles at a more appropriate time than AI would do.

And finally, as someone who complained about a bajillion things on this forum, I can firmly say that the current skill system is far better than anything we had. Get your rose tinted glasses off, you're focusing on a single good thing in the past while there were 10 other issues you ignore. Can the skills be even further improved as of right now? Maybe. But I'm perfectly happy with them now, and would rather see the game improved in areas that it's lacking, rather than have a skill system rework #69.

[Lawrence Master-blaster]

In my experience, it helps flagship and balanced playstyles get closer to the officer-focused playsyle power level.

Are you implying that all-officer focused playstyle is the best in the game? Because that's, uh, something.

[SCC]

I usually only put a single point in Leadership (Crew training) and I really don't feel my fleets are any weaker for doing that.

meybe ur just 2 dumb 2 notice

The point is I can take almost any combination of skills and have a good run with no problems. Hell one day I'd like to do a zero skill run, just for the experiment.

You won't be able to rely on your flagship, but otherwise it shouldn't be much different until the late game, where skills like EW or OT come into play.

If you're having a hard time deciding which skills to get, and how to get everything you want with the limit of 15 skill points then that's great. It means Alex did a great job balancing them.

See, the thing I'm arguing for is that for most people it's not a hard decision to ditch combat entirely. Maybe veteran players stick to piloting because they know they can make it work, but I'm not convinced it's something that occurs to less experienced players.

Get your rose tinted glasses off

lol nerd

Can the skills be even further improved as of right now? Maybe. But I'm perfectly happy with them now, and would rather see the game improved in areas that it's lacking, rather than have a skill system rework #69.

I didn't know nerfing officers is actually reworking the entire skill system. Do you think Alex reworked the skill system in 0.97 as well?

Are you implying that all-officer focused playstyle is the best in the game? Because that's, uh, something.

It is the strongest.

[Megas]

I think Industry beyond tier 2 is bad for flagship focused play, it takes too much away from fleet if I want some fleet power.  No units can make Industry capstones work, but flagship focused gives up too much.

Low Leadership means going all-in on the flagship, probably on high-powered hull like Radiant, phase ship, or maybe some other battlecruiser.

And finally, as someone who complained about a bajillion things on this forum, I can firmly say that the current skill system is far better than anything we had. Get your rose tinted glasses off, you're focusing on a single good thing in the past while there were 10 other issues you ignore. Can the skills be even further improved as of right now? Maybe. But I'm perfectly happy with them now, and would rather see the game improved in areas that it's lacking, rather than have a skill system rework #69.

Does not mean I prefer combat of earlier releases despite other major flaws like combat autoresolve before 0.6a (most powerful Leadership/Tech powerleveling option), post-0.6a boarding, too rare ships and weapons, awful hyperspace storms that paralyzed the fleet and sucked out your supplies like a black hole, CP always costing one per order so you are out of CP when you order to capture all points.)  The biggest flaw of old releases is less hulls and weapons (no Legion, no Pegasus, no automated ships, no to a bunch of hulls that did not exist; no large missiles aside from Hurricane and Cyclone, no to League specialities like DEMs and IRAL).

Are you implying that all-officer focused playstyle is the best in the game? Because that's, uh, something.

It is the strongest.

I agree when all of the best multi-Ordos killers seen are all no-flagship units builds.  Your Radiant flagship took out four (I think), which is impressive, but not as much as the no-flagship units fleet (or at least fleet primary, flagship secondary) that kill five or more.  I do consider Ordos killing a measure of strength because that is how player gets the story points and cores later in the game, and anything that can kill Remnants can kill nearly everything else, even if not the most efficient.

[Grievous69]

People calling me dumb because I can skillfully pilot my flagship and actually make a difference in fights, today I have truly seen everything.

And please drop the ridiculous notion of "unless it can beat 5 Ordos, it's bad", that's playing a completely different game and has no basis whatsoever in discussions unless the final mission of this game is going to be "kill 5 Ordos to get a You win screen". I won't be continuing this joke of a so called discussion when some have nothing to say except throw insults and do olympic mental gymnastics fit for a gold medal.

[SCC]

do olympic mental gymnastics fit for a gold medal.

Didn't you start this with "actually the reason why you're complaining about it is nostalgia"?

[Megas]

People calling me dumb because I can skillfully pilot my flagship and actually make a difference in fights, today I have truly seen everything.

And please drop the ridiculous notion of "unless it can beat 5 Ordos, it's bad", that's playing a completely different game and has no basis whatsoever in discussions unless the final mission of this game is going to be "kill 5 Ordos to get a You win screen". I won't be continuing this joke of a so called discussion when some have nothing to say except throw insults and do olympic mental gymnastics fit for a gold medal.

Still does not take away from the fact that fleets that can kill the most Ordos are stronger than those that cannot.

EDIT:  Although if player needs to bring a bunch of extra ships to pad fleet DP and force extra Ordos to fight, it may not be very practical.  As long as the player can get +500% experience and kill Ordos quickly, it does not matter as much if it is three or ten.  It matters more if player can kill triple or quad Ordos for +500% xp fast.

I too like to play the flagship builds, but I get discouraged when I know I can do better if I use a powerful fleet instead or in addition to a flagship.  That if I want Industry, I have to dump Combat and copy the no-units builds (that all dump Combat) demonstrated in Ordos killer posts.  I have done phase ship builds (Ziggurat/Doom/Afflictor) and soloed double Ordos (which seemed stronger than double Tesseract or the Omega bounty at the time).  If I want a good flagship and fleet, I have to dump Industry.  If I want some flagship builds, like TaLaR's chain Afflictors, I need too many skill points in specific skills, not enough to spare for high-tier luxuries.

One reason I try flagship builds, aside from trying the play Starsector as a shump like in old releases, is less work to build up officers if 240 DP is filled by less than eight ships.  I liked Omega Ziggurat because I could totally ignore the officer building mini-game (which I absolutely dislike given how hard it is to replace them if they are unsuitable for the currently used fleet).  Unfortunately, Ziggurat is not a viable option all of the time (unlike a more general fleet) because some crises fights want stealth, and if I use Ziggurat, rep will go down to auto-hostile, which I do not want.

[BigBrainEnergy]

quote

I usually only put a single point in Leadership (Crew training) and I really don't feel my fleets are any weaker for doing that.

meybe ur just 2 dumb 2 notice

The point is I can take almost any combination of skills and have a good run with no problems. Hell one day I'd like to do a zero skill run, just for the experiment.

You won't be able to rely on your flagship, but otherwise it shouldn't be much different until the late game, where skills like EW or OT come into play.

If you're having a hard time deciding which skills to get, and how to get everything you want with the limit of 15 skill points then that's great. It means Alex did a great job balancing them.

See, the thing I'm arguing for is that for most people it's not a hard decision to ditch combat entirely. Maybe veteran players stick to piloting because they know they can make it work, but I'm not convinced it's something that occurs to less experienced players.

Get your rose tinted glasses off

lol nerd

Can the skills be even further improved as of right now? Maybe. But I'm perfectly happy with them now, and would rather see the game improved in areas that it's lacking, rather than have a skill system rework #69.

I didn't know nerfing officers is actually reworking the entire skill system. Do you think Alex reworked the skill system in 0.97 as well?

Are you implying that all-officer focused playstyle is the best in the game? Because that's, uh, something.

It is the strongest.

[close]

It's one thing to have a disagreement, but at no point have you made an argument that I've found remotely convincing. You're just assuming that your point of view is correct and when people disagree you're just saying "lol ur dumb" instead of defending your position.

"It is the strongest." Really? Based on what, your anecdotal experience? Nice. In my experience that's not true. I guess I win, right? No further explanation needed

[BigBrainEnergy]

What I saw recently was a number of people complaining that cybernetic augmentation was too strong. I don't think so, but I think it is good. Grabbing 5 in leadership and technology lets you grab almost all the best fleetwide skills, and at that point putting your last 5 into combat is the best option even if you went for automated ships.

That is just it.  Leadership and Technology feel mandatory this release (and the last two releases too).  That leaves Combat and Industry optional.  Pick one of those two to dump, either Combat for (no flagship) units play or Industry for flagship play.  I feel like I shoot myself in the foot if I want Combat and Industry instead, then leave five left for either Leadership or Technology.

It is one reason (but not the only reason) why I have been dissatisfied with Starsector lately and yearn for a release with pre-0.8a combat but with the campaign/story/exploration and the ships and weapons availability of the latest release.

Are they mandatory? You seem to get by just fine without leadership. You only get 15 skill points, obviously you're intended to specialize, and what you specialize into reflects your preferences. Industry is great for most of the game, but it falls off endgame when you have a ton of credits anyways. Not perfect balancing but it's not terrible. I avoid industry now just because the early game becomes too easy, and I have no reason to spec into it late game so guess what? I always end up 5-5-5 with the other trees. That doesn't mean this is the best way to play the game but it reflects how I approach it.

My complaint about the combat tree is that, ironically, it feels weakest in the early game right now. Better to get flux regulation and crew training first before going into combat skills, partly because the combat skills aren't all that strong if you only have 1-2 on a frigate, but they get pretty strong once you have 4+ on a cruiser or bigger. Then again I haven't really tried going straight into combat skill more than a couple of times so maybe the sample size is too small.

[Megas]

@ BigBrainEnergy:  I am thinking about endgame when it is Ordos hunting time.  Before that part, when hunting human fleets, I can manage without Leadership, without s-mods, and without officers optimized for a specific ship.  Once I need to fight Ordos, I need to select ships for a final fleet, put s-mods on them, and raise officers with specific skills for those ships.  In other words, locking in the fleet.  I did not need to do this in older releases.  (Well, there was no skill respec before, but in the releases with max level, it was mostly a choice between getting colony skills or not and getting carrier skills or not.  In releases with soft cap, it was possible to grind to level 70+ and get practically everything.)

Industry is nice before endgame, but it would be nice if it was more useful for endgame too like the other three trees.  I liked endgame in older releases, but endgame in modern releases is too much work to build for (if I do not cheat) unless I opt for solo Omega Ziggurat, which is blocked by technically non-hostile enemies (if I do not want to destroy rep) that have became more common in crises.  (Before crises, I could spend a story point to flee at worst if I got stopped by a quest fleet that refused to take no for an answer and threatened combat.  I cannot flee from invaders coming to wreck my colonies or scanning or destroying traffic in my systems as I pass by.)

I agree Combat is rather lackluster early.  I tried a Hammerhead start, grabbed Combat skills and rushed bounties.  I did not feel much better than an unskilled character.  Bounties still leveled up far faster than I could upgrade.  I kill one or two 50k bounties, and the 80k bounty that comes next has a pirate cruiser or two (and other ships) that will kill off a ship or two in my smaller fleet.  (They have bigger and better ships than my fleet.)

My favorite early build is to get Navigation at level 1 for faster burn and T-Jump, then trade my way to level 6 and get Hull Restoration, then start fighting and recovering enemy ships to upgrade my fleet.  All this talk about making ships harder to shop for would not affect me much because I rely mostly on the enemy to give my more ships for Hull Restoration to fix until endgame.  Aside from the enemy, I find bargains in the bar, either from base commanders or powered armor pirate (latter needs marines).

I like Hull Restoration primarily as insurance against AI stupidity.  I have seen my NPCs ships kill themselves through idiotic pilot error or the rare freak accident over the years, and having Hull Restoration as insurance against d-mods and effectively keep the benefits of a flawless victory despite taking casualties is so nice.  Unfortunately, I feel like I have to give that up if I want to keep my Combat flagship at endgame.  On the other hand, depending on sector generation, giving up Industrial Planning when I do not use AI cores in colonies is also inconvenient.  (If I used AI cores like everyone else, then Industrial Planning is an easy dump - IP needs a better player-only bonus to reward the player for taking it.  +50% production limit is useful only once or twice during midgame.  By endgame, I stockpiled enough to not need to build much if anything.)

P.S.  My typical build is Combat/Tech/Industry at 5 each, with Automated Ships and Hull Restoration as capstones.  I want Automated Ships because I want to collect (and use) all the ships like pokemon, and I cannot collect automated ships without the skill.  If I care more about power, I would dump Automated Ships for Cybernetic Augmentation, but I cannot bring myself to abandon the automated ships because I feel like I am missing out on the Automated Ships DLC.  The build I use is underpowered (I know), and I cannot use some builds like Afflictor as effectively.  An easy boost if I want to keep Tech and Industry is to dump Combat and get Leadership... at the price of giving up my flagship and play the units game, which I do not want to do.

[SCC]

You're just assuming that your point of view is correct and when people disagree you're just saying "lol ur dumb" instead of defending your position.

As is going "lol ur nostalgic".

"It is the strongest." Really? Based on what, your anecdotal experience? Nice. In my experience that's not true. I guess I win, right? No further explanation needed

Cap'n Hector's various "5 ships vs 5 ordos" videos (Legions, Onslaughts, Paragons, , Draba's various fleet comp vs 6 ordos videos, Rainy's (on Discord) ordo hunting escapades, Legionhead's (also on Discord) ordo hunting fleet (I don't know if he ended up getting 5 points in industry or not) and yes, even my own experiences after playing the game for quite some time.

Arguments to the contrary would be Vanshilar's fights against 5 ordos, Sinigir's 3740 DP fight and my Radiant fleet vs 5 ordos fight.

There is a lot more content of a certain kind.

My complaint about the combat tree is that, ironically, it feels weakest in the early game right now. Better to get flux regulation and crew training first before going into combat skills

Wolfpack Tactics! Crew Training is also pretty good if you don't need a particular combat skill for a particular job (like EWM or Defensive Systems), and it helps it fits every ship you are going to pilot, anyway.