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Author Topic: Hull Restoration is way too overpowered  (Read 3750 times)

Ser Jonathan Cena of York

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Hull Restoration is way too overpowered
« on: April 11, 2024, 07:50:40 AM »

Hull Restoration feels like cheating. Pick this skill, and your ships will magically fix their severe, overhaul-requiring problems mid-flight. Also pretty much all of them will be recoverable as long as you win a fight.

IMO this skill should be toned down somewhat. Right now you'd be a complete idiot not to pick it, which basically makes the Industry skills "mandatory".

Hull Restoration should instead give you a discount on in-dock overhauls to remove d-mods, plus the ship recovery rate should be reduced.

Inb4 "just don't pick it bro": if a skill is officially part of the game, I will pick it. I am not a Catholic nun to exercise self-restraint while playing Starsector. Not picking Hull Restoration also doesn't make sense from a roleplay perspective. What captain would be stupid enough to pass on the "magic ship repair" option?
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Megas

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Re: Hull Restoration is way too overpowered
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2024, 08:10:30 AM »

If anything, Hull Restoration should be buffed more if the rest of Industry stays as it is (or gets nerfed even more), especially after the nerf to Ordnance Expertise.  Ships do not repair fast enough when there is a backlog of d-mods to fix, does not fix built-in d-mods like Executor's Special Modifications (got to Restore Executor if player wants a pristine one), and the max CR boost is not enough to make up for a lack of a combat skill between tier 2 and capstone.

Hull Restoration would be fine if there was another combat skill in Industry.  Currently, Industry is the weakest tree (for combat) in the game.

Hull Restoration giving a discount on Restore would be nice though.

Hull Restoration (when it was named something else) used to repair slower, but that was too slow, so it was sped up to about one per month, and recently sped up for low DP ships further.  It is still not very fast if player gains new d-mods frequently.

Getting Hull Restoration (or Derelict Operations) means ten skill points left for the other three trees.  If I want to build a fleet that is good against Ordos while using Industry, that means I probably need to dump Combat entirely and pick up BotB and Cybernetic Augmentation and play the units game, which I dislike.  If I want a good flagship (because I want to pilot a powerful ship), I either go all-in with Combat and Tech for super Radiant/phase ship or go Combat/Leadership/Tech for the meta build.  Either way, I need to dump Industry, which stinks.
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Jawgo

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Re: Hull Restoration is way too overpowered
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2024, 08:16:59 AM »

But, but, but... but I love 'Hull Restoration' so much though! Before I got this skill in my first campaign, I felt like I was drowning for 50+ hours; I just couldn't make any meaningful progress with my fleet and couldn't stop bleeding cash trying to balance fixing just enough key ships, to win just enough fights, to be able to afford just enough supplies and fuel... then I randomly happened to mouse over and read the description of 'Hull Restoration' and decided to try it, and it was like I could FINALLY breath. At last I started making meaningful progress toward becoming progressively more powerful, and from there never looked back. And it felt good, from an RPG perspective, to feel like I had put in my time grinding through the mud to survive long enough to get to that point, like the skill made me feel like I'd made it as a fleet captain.

But I guess all this kinda helps prove your point though... I literally can not imagine playing the vanilla game without it. But I also don't want to entertain not playing with it. In my mind, either 'Hull Restoration' stays what it is or the rest of the game needs to be tuned down, and the latter option seems like a lot more work. I dunno, just the two cents of a Starsector noob, lol. I have only been playing close to a month and a half and have like 150 hours in the game, so take my opinion with a heap of salt :P
« Last Edit: April 11, 2024, 08:53:04 AM by Jawgo »
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Megas

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Re: Hull Restoration is way too overpowered
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2024, 08:26:47 AM »

Because fighting in Starsector practically demands flawless victory to profit from combat, I like Hull Restoration because it eases the pressure needed to play perfectly.  I get so annoyed about my AI ships dying beyond my control, and Hull Restoration helps fix that.  Instead of needing flawless victory, player can lose some ships and come out without d-mods on his ships if he is lucky.  Unfortunately, the hit to combat power (because of the skill point cost) is too much, so player is probably better off not getting Hull Restoration unless he wants the +max 15% CR from it instead of getting Combat Endurance on every officer to get 100% CR from that and Crew Training.

Of course, there is Derelict Operations for those who do not care about dying, but for me, I dislike clunkers (ships with d-mods) so much that I refuse to use them unless they are taken to get fixed soon (either by Hull Restoration or going home to get Restored).
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prav

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Re: Hull Restoration is way too overpowered
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2024, 08:45:26 AM »

Crippling faults and deadly structural failures just bring character to a ship.

Really D-mods just aren't that bad. You can just ignore them. You'll probably find a nicer ship soon enough anyway.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2024, 08:47:11 AM by prav »
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BigBrainEnergy

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Re: Hull Restoration is way too overpowered
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2024, 08:58:03 AM »

Really depends on what stage of the game you're at. Early game it's the obvious best pick, but past a certain point you have a full fleet of pristine ships and a massive pile of spare credits you can use to patch up any d-mods you get, so you might as well respec out of it and go into a different tree. If you have a lot of experience you'll find it makes the early game too easy, but you always have the option of ignoring it.

Derelict operations is also a pretty good alternative, making d-mods actually a net positive.
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Thaago

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Re: Hull Restoration is way too overpowered
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2024, 12:35:33 PM »

Hull Restoration feels like cheating. Pick this skill, and your ships will magically fix their severe, overhaul-requiring problems mid-flight. Also pretty much all of them will be recoverable as long as you win a fight.

IMO this skill should be toned down somewhat. Right now you'd be a complete idiot not to pick it, which basically makes the Industry skills "mandatory".

Hull Restoration should instead give you a discount on in-dock overhauls to remove d-mods, plus the ship recovery rate should be reduced.

Inb4 "just don't pick it bro": if a skill is officially part of the game, I will pick it. I am not a Catholic nun to exercise self-restraint while playing Starsector. Not picking Hull Restoration also doesn't make sense from a roleplay perspective. What captain would be stupid enough to pass on the "magic ship repair" option?

I disagree - for me hull restoration is a "never" pick unless I'm going for serious Automated Ship deployments. I consider it the weakest capstone by a significant margin.

Hull restoration is a QoL boost... but its a QoL boost for something that is low priority and easy. Having a few D mods on ships is fine: the psychological need to have 'perfect' ships is more impactful than 1 or 2 D mods. Once the ship has too many (say 4 or 5) it can be scrapped and a new one bought (or it could be restored, though that is expensive). In that way Hull Restoration provides a decent economic boost, but not a very large ones. Ships are cheap and plentiful compared to combat rewards. If the player snags a high/very high importance contact on a good planet, even capital ships are cheap (contact ships are something like 25% of the regular price I think).

Consider for example losing a destroyer, say an escort sunder, in a fight. A new Sunder costs about 50k (you get the weapons back from recovering, stripping, scrapping, along with some fuel/supplies), but it doesn't need a replacement after a single loss because a few D mods isn't a big deal. So say 3 explosions average before needing a new one, or ~16k credits per pop. That's really not very much, and in most combats a player won't lose very many ships. Even a hard fight with losses is still profitable as bounty payments are generous (especially contact bounties!).

Losing a capital is painful as they are much more expensive - the same metric of 3 losses before replacement gives 100-300k per explosion, a nasty amount! But it should only be in the most dire fights that capitals are lost (IE a fight where the player should have issued retreat orders to run before it got to that point). That's one of the reasons to have smaller ships, so that they sacrifice themselves before capitals die.

One argument against the above is that the S mods on the ships are lost when they are replaced... but they aren't because the remaining "balance" of bonus XP from the S mods is given when the ship is lost/scrapped. The lifecycle bonus XP of scrapping a ship, buying a new one, and putting the S mods back on is 100% for each S mod.

15% CR for all pristine ships is nice. It frees up an officer skill for normal ships (though CR and potentially hull regen are useful on their own). That and the D mod removal stacks especially well with Automated Ships, because in that case every source of CR is precious and because those ships can't be normally bought.
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Ryan390

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Re: Hull Restoration is way too overpowered
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2024, 01:16:24 PM »

I agree with the OP, it seems the best skill to have by a long margin. I didn't spend a penny on any capital ships, all captured and slowly repaired to full over time with no d-mods.

Also it allows you to be much riskier and liberal in combat, not worrying about losing ships.

The drawback is that it means your going to invest in the Industry tree, which isn't the best one for when you want to build a pure optimal death stack.

I've heard from a few people that having officers and s-modded ships also makes them recoverable, is that the case? Or is it not a guaranteed recovery?
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Thaago

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Re: Hull Restoration is way too overpowered
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2024, 01:30:39 PM »

Yup, if there are any S mods or an officer on board, the ship is guaranteed to be recoverable. Reinforced Hull will do the same thing (it says "almost" in the description but that's not accurate in this case).
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Wyvern

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Re: Hull Restoration is way too overpowered
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2024, 01:42:32 PM »

Yup, if there are any S mods or an officer on board, the ship is guaranteed to be recoverable. Reinforced Hull will do the same thing (it says "almost" in the description but that's not accurate in this case).
Actually, that "almost" very much is accurate. 100% recovery chance will work most of the time, under normal gameplay conditions, if you're winning battles.

But it only helps if the game actually gets to rolling the dice - and that's the part that still isn't guaranteed. For example, if you engage a station through the "consider your military options" dialog, lose a ship, retreat, re-engage, and win... that lost ship is gone regardless of your recovery chance. For another example, if you are fighting a large enemy fleet that's 100% equipped with Reinforced Bulkheads - well, no, you won't actually be guaranteed to be able to salvage the entire fleet, because there's a limit on the number of ships that will be offered for recovery.

I'm not offhand aware of other situations where you can lose 100% recovery chance ships, but I'm confident that some mod out there has managed to add some. And that "almost" does important work in setting the expectation that, yes, there can be exceptions.
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Thaago

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Re: Hull Restoration is way too overpowered
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2024, 02:31:11 PM »

My bad, you're right! I believe those are the same restrictions on retrieving ships with officers and S mods, right? Also if you just straight lose a fight and have to run, you can't recover them.
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Wyvern

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Re: Hull Restoration is way too overpowered
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2024, 02:55:05 PM »

My bad, you're right! I believe those are the same restrictions on retrieving ships with officers and S mods, right? Also if you just straight lose a fight and have to run, you can't recover them.
Correct, yeah. All of those are a guaranteed recovery if the situation allows for recovery.
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actually-a-cat

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Re: Hull Restoration is way too overpowered
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2024, 03:01:42 PM »

I consider Hull Restoration to be a mandatory pick most of the time because the game is much less fun and smooth to play without it.

If I don't have it, I have to do at least one of these things:

1. Play conservatively and only pick easy fights so I don't lose ships
2. Grind hard for money so I can always afford to restore ships the expensive way
3. Use a lot of disposable, non-s-modded hulls, so I can throw them away and replace when they accumulate too many d-mods

I can do this, and have, but I really don't want to. 1 because hard fights that are barely winnable are the most fun thing to do, 2 because it would slow down progress too much (I know how to make money effectively, but I would still have to spend a lot of time doing it to make up for the millions of credits HR is not saving me), 3 because it's too much hassle to look for replacement hulls.

So I always get HR as soon as I can, and I keep it on until late game when money is effectively unlimited (or at least until I have custom production and blueprints for everything I want to use)

It arguably might be just a "QoL boost", but the boost is so large that I wouldn't want to play the game without it.

If I were to make a change, I wouldn't nerf HR, but rather make it less necessary by reducing the cost of normal restoration. HR would still be nice to have for multiple reasons, but the cost of not having it wouldn't be crushing. And it would feel more sensible anyway. The insane price was fitting at the time of introduction of d-mods, when good hulls were genuinely scarce and restoring a wreck was often the only way to get your hands on a rare ship. But acquiring ships has been made easier with every update, and now that you can just buy or make almost any ship in pristine condition, and HR exists, it's just pointlessly annoying and out of place.
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Megas

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Re: Hull Restoration is way too overpowered
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2024, 03:15:01 PM »

Re: Guaranteed recovery
If you lose too many ships, few ships will be lost because the game only offers so many for recovery.  I think 24 ships is the limit.  I lost more than that in one or two fights that I won in the end, but I could not recover them all due to exceeding the 24-ship limit.  Also, losing too many ships means the enemy does not offer as many ships to recover.
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Thaago

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Re: Hull Restoration is way too overpowered
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2024, 03:17:10 PM »

I mentioned this earlier, but your point 3 about S mods isn't needed! The lifecycle of an S mod on a ship is 100% bonus XP to scrap a ship and then place it on a new one. For frigates it is frontloaded to when placing the S mod, with larger ships getting more refund on loss, but in all cases replacing a ship gives a 100% rebate on all "lost" S points.
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