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Author Topic: do you unironically use DEM missiles?  (Read 3542 times)

Killer of Fate

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do you unironically use DEM missiles?
« on: March 16, 2024, 08:13:08 AM »

I have been sitting in custom scenarios, testing a bunch of vanilla weapons on a slightly modded conquest (less base flux, better shields, changed Mjollnir, etc.), but all of this trying to retain some balance with the original game. And I have been equipping Conquest with a variety of missiles. But I was trying to replace the original game's DEM variant. And DEM are just a waste to be honest. Or maybe it's just the fact that I'm not using expanded missile racks to have more flux for weapons, which are kinda modded, so they take slightly more flux in the case of tac lasers, and slightly less in the case of Mjollnirs. Point being. Hurricane. Devastating. Squall. Annoying. Locust. Cheap and long-term. Gorgon??? The ship just keeps spamming those and they're only really good at hunting down specific frigates and destroyers. Otherwise, it's just meh. Dragon? I guess it's cool. But the Conquest has no real way of preventing the Dragon from being destroyed. Unless it gets closer and uses its Ion Pulsers to disable PD. So, I guess it has. But I dunno,

I guess green ones are like Harpoons that only work against small targets. And Dragon is like Reaper, except more reliable. Or just for non-direct facing slots. I dunno... They feel like what Hephaestus and Hellbore situation. They're clearing competing for the same niche and don't feel like they're achieving a whole different set of scenarios. Instead they somewhat feel like slightly inferior versions of the normal missiles. Kinda like some high tech gadget that achieves the exact same thing a low tech one would in a completely workaround way that is far more vulnerable to being countered.

Like. Dragon does 4k damage. Reaper also does 4k damage. Sure, one is energy, the other is high explosive. But also one is soft flux. Sure, one of them has to be aimed, but the projectile is faster and doesn't take time to arm. Sure, one is more reliable. But the difference is very significant. Significant so to justify one costing 12 and 28 op for 2 and 5 projectiles? With the other costing 10 and 26 for 6 and 14? With the latter being slightly buffed version?
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ubernoob

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Re: do you unironically use DEM missiles?
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2024, 09:08:56 AM »

I do use DEMs unironically but only in pure missile spam, when almost every ship in your fleet has Fast Missile Racks and it's all EMR and Missile Specialization and with every ship having lots of DEMs and in this scenario they're great when paired with high DPS kinetics.

Which is a problem IMO, you either overwhelm enemies with so many DEMs that they can't block or dodge, or can't even make a dent if you only bring a few, they got balanced into a corner.

Dragonfires are pretty good though, instant armor melting or big flux spike that is almost impossible to shoot down, but with the OP price and limited ammo it's competing against a lot of good stuff - maybe a little too much for the price.


Wouldn't mind seeing a revamp of DEMs in the future, very hit or miss without spam.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2024, 09:25:48 AM by ubernoob »
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Fenrir

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Re: do you unironically use DEM missiles?
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2024, 09:21:24 AM »

Dragonfire: meet side facing missile mounts
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Killer of Fate

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Re: do you unironically use DEM missiles?
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2024, 09:51:44 AM »

Wouldn't mind seeing a revamp of DEMs in the future, very hit or miss without spam.

I was thinking of doing a revamp that would move their roles a bit. But eh, 100% certain Fractal has different plans. But if I were to do it, it'd work like this.

Dragon is a kinetic burst. There are no large sabots. So, its job would be to deliver 4k kinetic damage to overflux cruisers and capital ships as a projectile sent out from long ranges by a missile boat like a Gryphon. It could also easily snipe frigates attempting to flank, although the projectile speed would remain unchanged, so frigates would be able to easily avoid it. That would justify its high cost and low ammo capacity. But it would also need some testing to see whether a kinetic missile wouldn't be too useless against large ships and how would the NPC behaviour handle it.

Gorgon would be with the job of destroying armour. With its beams dealing close quarters high explosive damage across long periods of time. Its ammo would be reduced to two, but its duration of firing would be significantly shortened. Its job would be to punish low tech ships that do not use that much PD, and also reward players that use fighters. Gorgons kinda work like that nowadays, in that Talons hard-counter them. But at the same time, their damage window is so small, sometimes it's just about eating the projectile. Because in the end its damage to shields or armour isn't that significant, as long as more than like 10 follow in your wake. And for capital ships and cruisers... Pretty much invulnerable.

I'm not sure about Gazer. But I would imagine it being generalist in nature, dealing good damage to hull with low hit strength beam damage. But its duration and range could be shortened, but I honestly don't know...

All of this would need more testing or whatever... Never mind.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2024, 10:15:10 AM by Killer of Fate »
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Cryovolcanic

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Re: do you unironically use DEM missiles?
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2024, 10:24:11 AM »

I do use DEMs unironically but only in pure missile spam, when almost every ship in your fleet has Fast Missile Racks and it's all EMR and Missile Specialization and with every ship having lots of DEMs and in this scenario they're great when paired with high DPS kinetics.

Which is a problem IMO, you either overwhelm enemies with so many DEMs that they can't block or dodge, or can't even make a dent if you only bring a few, they got balanced into a corner.

Dragonfires are pretty good though, instant armor melting or big flux spike that is almost impossible to shoot down, but with the OP price and limited ammo it's competing against a lot of good stuff - maybe a little too much for the price.


Wouldn't mind seeing a revamp of DEMs in the future, very hit or miss without spam.

What ships do you use for this kind of fleet?
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Grievous69

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Re: do you unironically use DEM missiles?
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2024, 11:02:49 AM »

When I used them in my fleet, I had a mix of all of them except for Gazers (they're just not my playstyle, no idea how good they are). And I don't understand why would anyone want to rework them, they're unique. Argument of "they're only when spammed" is weak because you can argue that for half of the game's weapons and ships, especially missile weapons in general. Also that's just not true, a single Vigilance with a Hydra and EMR is probably going to be ultra annoying for the enemy fleet. Have a ship that's weak to frigates? Put Gorgons on it, problem solved.

If there's a missile that imo seems underwhelming in few numbers but funny strong when spammed, that's the Hurricane. Single Pilum Catapult in your fleet will do more than the single Hurricane.

Back to DEMs, they really shouldn't have a burst kinetic missile as that's basically Sabot but better, would be ultra annoying to fight against.

@Killer of Fate
I swear you end every other post with "Eh whatever who cares, nobody will read this anyway, yeah actually forget I said anything" and similar stuff. What's the point of that? If you don't care about the subject, why post in the first place... And if it's something you wrote seriously, then that only hurts your visibility. Maybe it happened to somebody else but you've conditioned me to pass over most of your posts since the way you wrote the end seems like you typed random ramblings or just posted something for the sake of it. This isn't a personal attack lol, just figure out what you're saying first man.
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Killer of Fate

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Re: do you unironically use DEM missiles?
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2024, 11:23:42 AM »

eh
Spoiler
well, funny you mention that. Cause when I read your posts, I feel like you sometimes come off as a kind of condescending contrarian (but eh, don't worry about it). I mean, the reason I type this kind of stuff is that these are concepts I want to work over publicly before considering to implement them into my own mods as a way to change the game's balancing doctrine. Plus, like... It's true. The entire interactivity of the internet is non-consequential which is what leads to general environment of frustration among people which results in this ridiculous polarisation causing conflict-seeking behaviour. Because conflict, is the only real way of meaningful interaction. But eh...

When I type stuff on Forum, I enjoy the thought of that someone may read and understand what I mean, but also face the reality that 9 out of 10 times people are just gonna be like... Well, what you said "whatever, this guy again". So, whatever... I write it. People read it. Some enjoy it. Some don't. We don't have to be... Solar about it.

The thing is that you shouldn't get personally involved into the internet, whatever you post should be a part of you you leave behind for others to interpret. And not go out of your way to cleanse whatever misconceptions there are, or whatever differences you have with someone else. Which is why I approach writing posts with a different kind of tone. More of the fact that I assume that whatever I wrote is probably wrong. And the point of discussion isn't to present your opinion in a way that makes it look right, but in a way that makes it look flawed, so that you can have others explain to you the possible perspectives you might have missed. At least, that's what I try to do... But, I could imagine this being misinterpreted...

Just to clarify, I'm sorry if the first words insulted you. Just because you're kinda direct in your behaviour, doesn't mean I disrespect you. It's just that when I see people arguing over things on the internet in a way like that. In which there are clear opposite sides willing to convince one another endlessly. It reminds me of a doctrine I tried to leave behind. And feel like always led to the same spot. Nowhere. It's a standstill. I just prefer to leave my opinion as ramblings, rather than a concrete stance. Cause it feels more honest and it also underlines the fact that no matter what opinion one has, the reality will most often remain unchanged. And that we as human beings are merely victims of the world rather than its creators.

But eh, I don't want to bore you with my philosophical ramblings.
[close]

If it comes to Hurricane, I don't really feel that way about them. The difference between Hurricane is that it pairs well with just general damage doctrine, cause these are just fast moving, difficult to shoot down high explosive missiles. Nothing short of very potent PD grids are going to be able to counter those. Whereas DEMs feels like they are going to pursue their target for a really long time, shoot a beam that will deal no damage, cause the ship they're firing at has like 0.6 flux/damage ratio. With the point of them being that if you spam Gorgons against frigates or destroyers. They die. Which... Yeah. Hurricane is toss them into the general direction of a capital ship and keep firing on top, they will deal shield damage or pierce shields. But I guess I was testing this with Conquest. So, whatever. Having 2 Hurricanes is already spamming it. Modded Conquest, note, slightly stronger than an average one.

In the end missiles fulfil support roles for ships. High Explosive damage and Kinetic damage meant to add a punch or accelerate the working of a strike vessel. Long range large missiles meant to give capitals means to terrorise one another across long ranges.

DEMs don't seem to work that way. At least not to me. Their job is to be good on their own. Which leads them to be working like this... Spam. You put as many of them as you can on like a ship and then keep spamming them, so that they might pierce shields. That's how Gorgons work. And if it comes to Dragon, Dragon works being a high hit strength weapon. But it's just kind of a strange concept. Because you pay for reliability. And like... Because reliable is the opposite of what missiles are supposed to be, for balancing reasons, it has to be really toned down.

And the other issue I have with DEMs is that the NPCs don't really have any strategy with them. But I dunno, I may be seeing this behaviour with Squall and Hurricane too. They just throw them out there and they fly and land, dealing miniscule shield damage. The difference is though that with Squall and Hurricane, the damage is hard flux. Whereas DEMs might hit. Like Gorgons will, and then by the time you reach the target, it will just remove all that soft flux it accumulated. And the ship just keeps throwing them when chasing someone. And then... Like nothing happens. With Hurricane it may at least slow them down, cause they have to dodge, losing speed. And Squalls do that too. Gorgons are just BWWWWWWWWP... And nothing. And Dragon is too slow to achieve that. Fortunately Dragon NPC behaviour seems different.

yeah, but whatever man...


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« Last Edit: March 16, 2024, 12:31:34 PM by Killer of Fate »
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2_Wycked

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Re: do you unironically use DEM missiles?
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2024, 11:33:34 AM »

I use them on my Odyssey with plasma cannons... very fun
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ubernoob

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Re: do you unironically use DEM missiles?
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2024, 12:48:19 PM »

What ships do you use for this kind of fleet?
A lot of vigilances (replace once you get SD+DO), some Champions, Gryphons, Geminis, Herons and a player piloted Pegasus (Conquest works too but I prefer Pegasus for maximum spam). Afflictor(P) + Monitor if you feel like cheesing for distractions and damage buffs. Support doctrine and Derelict operations means cruisers push 10-13 DP and Pegasi are at 35DP with 5 D-mods. You can go combat for Missile spec and dmg or loop around Leadership for 3rd S-mod and fighter buffs.

Other good candidate ships are Venture(P)s and Buffalo Mk2 but they don't have much going on other than missile spam - midline also has ships with good shields and weapons that aren't missiles only. Odyssey with Gorgons and Squalls is also decent.

Overall lots and lots of Gorgons, some Pilums and Salamanders for EMP with Squalls if enemy has good shields, maybe Dragonfires and Harpoons if I want some finishers, many medium kinetics and tons of fighters. Once you get enough Flash bombers you're unstoppable, entire fleet shoots missiles and bombs that can barely be shot down. Gorgons do guaranteed damage and distract, then bombers and heavier missiles finish off. AI freaks out the moment even 1 Gorgon is flying close.

When I used them in my fleet, I had a mix of all of them except for Gazers (they're just not my playstyle, no idea how good they are). And I don't understand why would anyone want to rework them, they're unique. Argument of "they're only when spammed" is weak because you can argue that for half of the game's weapons and ships, especially missile weapons in general. Also that's just not true, a single Vigilance with a Hydra and EMR is probably going to be ultra annoying for the enemy fleet. Have a ship that's weak to frigates? Put Gorgons on it, problem solved.

If there's a missile that imo seems underwhelming in few numbers but funny strong when spammed, that's the Hurricane. Single Pilum Catapult in your fleet will do more than the single Hurricane.

Back to DEMs, they really shouldn't have a burst kinetic missile as that's basically Sabot but better, would be ultra annoying to fight against.


I don't see Hurricanes nearly as oppressive as DEMs, Hurricanes miss ships a lot and can be dodged, DEMs can't be dodged. Hurricane is very underwhelming this update, behavior change and going from 9 to 7 submunitions made them much weaker.

DEMs can also do hilariously memey stuff like this : look how the charge up starts (and later fires the entire beam) through a friendly allied ship (meaning it's impossible to shoot down and since it's a beam that tracks at fast speed, impossible to dodge too -> guaranteed 4k dmg per missile here) :
Spoiler
[close]

Now, you can do this with other missiles too like PCLs, Annihilators, really any missile that isn't a torpedo but in order to "cover" for your missile you gotta be pretty close to it, it's not always the play. DEM missiles themselves have 1500-2500 range, and their beams have 700-1100 range, with flawless tracking, so you really gotta go out of your way to shoot them down or tank with shields.

My main argument to rework is that, on ships that can't immediately put several DEMs out at once they aren't good, once you get FMR spammers with a DEM + Torpedo/Squall/Fighter mix they become amazing as sudden burst damage and distraction vs smaller ships, then you get a Pegasus and your screen is just this :
Spoiler
[close]

I do think they should be better on their own, and benefit slightly less from FMR and other buffs.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2024, 12:51:27 PM by ubernoob »
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Brainwright

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Re: do you unironically use DEM missiles?
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2024, 01:55:05 PM »

I use a Venture MkII with hydra and EMR, plus a fitting captain.  Between the ship and the captain, it's got 45 hydras.

For as long as that lasts, no ship can push into my fleet without being destroyed.  So I anchor a couple of destroyers with Escort Package to it, and I have a stable spot that soaks up enemy attention while my fast ships try to circle around the enemy fleet.

It works.  Hydras, pilums, and salamanders are missiles best fired by other ships to support allied ships.  Of course you think they suck if you're just piloting one ship against another.  It's not the ideal situation.
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Megas

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Re: do you unironically use DEM missiles?
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2024, 03:12:48 PM »

I have used Lumens and BuffaloIIs with nothing but Gorgons to fry the first wave of point cappers.  Lumens mostly because they are in the fleet until Hull Restoration fixes them up.  Buffalo because I recovered it during a crisis attack and threw it back at the next enemy fleet, replaced its weapons with Gorgons (3 small, 1 medium) and did not care if it died or not.

Gazers are okay if I can spam lots, though they have been limited mostly to SIM fights while experimenting with loadouts, like trying to make non-SO Fury work.

I try to make Dragonfires work, but they keep getting shot down by capitals' PD.  They are too expensive.  They would be okay if they were as cheap as Hammers if the rest of the stats stay as they are.  The only time I can see using Dragonfires is priority choice on battlestations because they have unlimited missiles.  Dragonfire spam from an allied battlestation is quite the sight.
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TheFreind

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Re: do you unironically use DEM missiles?
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2024, 07:15:14 PM »

Dragonfires feel incredible. There's a player who name dropped the Odyssey and I 100% agree. I load up 2 Plasma cannons + 2 Dragonfires on alternating fire and go to town. Since the Odyssey likes to play real close and dangerous, and it has a huge, strong shield that has a wide arc, I can fire off the Dragonfires and they will remain within the safety of my shield when charging up. Add in some Xyphos fighters and your Dragonfires have a 90% success rate of firing away at close range.

This really plays in to the hit-and-run playstyle of the Odyssey. When you really need overwhelming firepower right as you're bursting into range to take out a high-priority target, there are few missile weapons that fulfill that role. Hurricane traditionally played that role due to the odd mount placement, but you still had a big problem. And that's big unbreakable shields. Sure, your Plasma Cannons can maul anything to size, but that takes time. The longer it takes, the more time your victim can escape into the heaping mass of their death ball fleet. So, as I stated, you need something that hits HARD, QUICKLY, and ideally something that can equally devastate the shields and armor.

Enter the Dragon.

The only downside is that by the time I fire off the Dragon I tend to regret blowing the missile because it is so painfully overkill. Hey, that's a good problem, right?
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Siffrin

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Re: do you unironically use DEM missiles?
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2024, 07:38:14 PM »

Dragonfires feel incredible. There's a player who name dropped the Odyssey and I 100% agree. I load up 2 Plasma cannons + 2 Dragonfires on alternating fire and go to town. Since the Odyssey likes to play real close and dangerous, and it has a huge, strong shield that has a wide arc, I can fire off the Dragonfires and they will remain within the safety of my shield when charging up. Add in some Xyphos fighters and your Dragonfires have a 90% success rate of firing away at close range.

This really plays in to the hit-and-run playstyle of the Odyssey. When you really need overwhelming firepower right as you're bursting into range to take out a high-priority target, there are few missile weapons that fulfill that role. Hurricane traditionally played that role due to the odd mount placement, but you still had a big problem. And that's big unbreakable shields. Sure, your Plasma Cannons can maul anything to size, but that takes time. The longer it takes, the more time your victim can escape into the heaping mass of their death ball fleet. So, as I stated, you need something that hits HARD, QUICKLY, and ideally something that can equally devastate the shields and armor.

Enter the Dragon.

The only downside is that by the time I fire off the Dragon I tend to regret blowing the missile because it is so painfully overkill. Hey, that's a good problem, right?
The Odyssey has the weakest shield out of all the High Tech capitals, it also has the second smallest arc.
Dragonfires are also useless against shields that dual Plasmas can't deal with quickly enough, soft flux isn't going to cut it against a capital ship or cruisers with good flux stats. "The only downside" do you realise that you can have at maximum 12 shots in total with that loadout? Are you just fighting small pirate fleets where sustainability doesn't matter?
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TheFreind

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Re: do you unironically use DEM missiles?
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2024, 08:24:24 PM »

The Odyssey has the weakest shield out of all the High Tech capitals, it also has the second smallest arc.
Dragonfires are also useless against shields that dual Plasmas can't deal with quickly enough, soft flux isn't going to cut it against a capital ship or cruisers with good flux stats. "The only downside" do you realise that you can have at maximum 12 shots in total with that loadout? Are you just fighting small pirate fleets where sustainability doesn't matter?
Weakest shield as opposed to which ships? There are only 3 High Tech Capitals in vanilla. Odyssey, Astral, and the Paragon.

Forgive me if I don't have the exact numbers, but I'm pretty sure Odyssey has superior shields to Astral in terms of flux capacity + dissipation. Not sure about the flux/efficiency so I'll let you fill that part. Anyhow, the main argument of Dragonfires is completely lost on an Astral. Why would you mount such a slow, meandering, 2000 range missile on an Astral of all ships? It's a carrier. If it's close enough to the enemy to fire off Dragonfires, you've got bigger problems on the docket.

Of course, I concede the shield superiority to the Paragon. But the Paragon utilizes a completely different set of tactics. It's an unsinkable anchor meant to absorb fire and push it right back in a large area around it. The Odyssey is a capital's worth of stats mounted on a cruiser's (or even destroyer) levels of mobility. Mobility is the forethought of Odyssey play. You quickly smash into a vulnerable spot and obliterate a cruiser. Or you can capitals bigger than your size by separating them from the rest of their group, or you target one that's currently fighting the rest of your forces (I field a few Furies on the battle). What do I do when fighting something I can't beat? Or see a group way too big for my liking? I just turn tail and not engage. You don't have to fight because they can't ever catch you to fight on their terms. Just start picking off the smaller enemies or whatever the Odyssey can body.

The Dragonfire is not great against shields due to the beam generating soft flux. But when an Odyssey with 2x plasma cannons is barraging at your shields, that soft flux generated is as big of a problem as hard flux. They can't disengage from you, so they overflux or the cannons take them out.

Yes, the limited ammunition is a big problem. That's the balancing factor baked into the Dragon. I mount expanded missile racks and put my weapons on alternating fire so I ration my missiles very efficiently for the first 5 minutes of the battle. Technically I can also pick Missile specialization, but I haven't found much need. I've successfully battled the [SUPER ALABASTER] ships and lost only a frigate with sound tactics. I got overconfident in the second battle and narrowly scraped a win. I believe benchmarking the ship's performance against the strongest enemies is good enough, at least to my tastes.
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Siffrin

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Re: do you unironically use DEM missiles?
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2024, 08:41:10 PM »

Weakest shield as opposed to which ships? There are only 3 High Tech Capitals in vanilla. Odyssey, Astral, and the Paragon.

Forgive me if I don't have the exact numbers, but I'm pretty sure Odyssey has superior shields to Astral in terms of flux capacity + dissipation. Not sure about the flux/efficiency so I'll let you fill that part. Anyhow, the main argument of Dragonfires is completely lost on an Astral. Why would you mount such a slow, meandering, 2000 range missile on an Astral of all ships? It's a carrier. If it's close enough to the enemy to fire off Dragonfires, you've got bigger problems on the docket.

Of course, I concede the shield superiority to the Paragon. But the Paragon utilizes a completely different set of tactics. It's an unsinkable anchor meant to absorb fire and push it right back in a large area around it. The Odyssey is a capital's worth of stats mounted on a cruiser's (or even destroyer) levels of mobility. Mobility is the forethought of Odyssey play. You quickly smash into a vulnerable spot and obliterate a cruiser. Or you can capitals bigger than your size by separating them from the rest of their group, or you target one that's currently fighting the rest of your forces (I field a few Furies on the battle). What do I do when fighting something I can't beat? Or see a group way too big for my liking? I just turn tail and not engage. You don't have to fight because they can't ever catch you to fight on their terms. Just start picking off the smaller enemies or whatever the Odyssey can body.

The Dragonfire is not great against shields due to the beam generating soft flux. But when an Odyssey with 2x plasma cannons is barraging at your shields, that soft flux generated is as big of a problem as hard flux. They can't disengage from you, so they overflux or the cannons take them out.

Yes, the limited ammunition is a big problem. That's the balancing factor baked into the Dragon. I mount expanded missile racks and put my weapons on alternating fire so I ration my missiles very efficiently for the first 5 minutes of the battle. Technically I can also pick Missile specialization, but I haven't found much need. I've successfully battled the [SUPER ALABASTER] ships and lost only a frigate with sound tactics. I got overconfident in the second battle and narrowly scraped a win. I believe benchmarking the ship's performance against the strongest enemies is good enough, at least to my tastes.
I never mentioned anything about strapping dragonfires on an Astral but you called the Odysseys shield strong which is blatantly false. For comparison the Onslaught has a slightly stronger shield with 1.0 efficiency and 17000 capacity, the Odyssey has 15000 capacity and 1.0 efficiency. The Astrals shield is significantly stronger than the Odyssey with its 0.6 shield efficiency easily making up for the 3000 capacity difference.

Hypershunt fights aren't a good benchmark since you don't fight a well balanced fleet compared to double Ordo. Sustainability isn't needed for fighting the Tesseracts so the ammo problems aren't noticeable and the dragonfires will only be useful for the first phase anyway.
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