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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); In-development patch notes for Starsector 0.98a (2/8/25)

Author Topic: Developer game mechanics that suck  (Read 986 times)

Infoblaze

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Developer game mechanics that suck
« on: March 10, 2024, 10:08:07 AM »

1. Not being able to run away without a story point.  Stop that stupid crap.  Also stop it with getting a bit of extra money on deals while we are on the topic of stupid game mechanics.  Seriously story points are the hardest to come by and so rare why would a player even spend them on your stupid crap?  If I get into a fight I know I will die I just altf4.  Problem solved.  Weee save scumming my favourite game feature!  And for an extra 10,000 money for a shipping deal what an insult.  If it is 1 billion I would still say no unless I can start to buy story points with money. Eliminate this crap immediately.  Replace it will losing CR if you run but if you are smart enough to know you can't win you shouldn't be punished so hard for not being an idiot.

2. Suicidal ships.  When you pick run they all die.  Weeee what a great game feature!!  If you know you are going to lose or want to engage in hit and run tactics what can you do in this game?  That's right nothing!! Weeee what fun when to take away all player agency! and might even kill enough to allow disengage and then as soon as you pick it all your ships decide to kill themselves.  To fix this getting to the disengage state should happen 5x fasted.  For both you and the AI if you run weapons should be disabled.  All power should go into the speed of escape and it should be x3.  Shields should still work.  This also has the added perk of resolving conflicts for both sides faster. 

3. Ships refusing to listen to commands.  Its so frustrating when you issue a command and the ship totally ignores if for 5 minutes strait until the command no longer matters then it goes to follow it and kills itself after everything else is also dead.  Go job.  When I issue a command FOLLOW IT 10000% of the time.  Do not screw around.  If the ship dies follow MY command then it is MY fault.  When it doesn't DO ANYTHING after a command whose fault is that? Hint the developer for taking away player agency.

4. Not enough command points to do anything useful.  Lets assume that actually issuing commands helped... then you should want to issue lots of commands and increase player agency right?  You have a whole UI interface for commands I never use as they are both useless and I have to little to bother learning them.  Give me 50 command points and allow better setting up of fleets and taking command points ahead of time so I don't have to repeat myself every battle then we are getting somewhere.

5.  Slow game, slow ships, slow getting into combat, slow travel.  Slow slow slow slow slow.  Respect my time.  Quit screwing around.  I have a x4 mod for travel and x2 mod for battle. Finally makes the game bearable. 

6. Not enough sim city options for your colonies.  SOOO much potential here.  I would say 60% of the fun comes from colony management.  I would highly suggest looking at some of the mods and making them vanilla for the game when it comes to development on this.


The rest are about garbage UI and how it seems to be 3 or so developers smashing interfaces together.  This needs to be cleaned up.  I will give specific examples.
1. Star navigation has 2 seperate UI's. What the hell?  One for seeing all your crap like missions and then another for navigating somewhere. Get rid of the second.  Allow for proper navigation on the first map.  When I right click on a mission GO THERE.  Don't make me tab out, go to the star sector by trying to remember where it was, then go into the solar system screen then find the planet and then select it.  Its laughable how stupid this interface is.  In game are you telling me your crew is so stupid you have to spell out where to go every time?  Other than the find the bounty mini game forget that its stupid.

2. No unified looting and navigating menus.  Nintendo managed to have an A and B button and allow for better navigation that your game. For example to exit a menu can be 1-4 EXCEPT when it is the escape key EXCEPT when it needs a mouse click EXCEPT when it is the G button except when it is R before G.  When you go to repair at a station it MIGHT be 3 EXCEPT when there is a special event where it could be 2 or 4 or 5.   This is so silly.  It make memorizing any keys impossible and the ergonomics of where you need to keep your fingers for quick commands makes no sense.  This system needs to be unified and fixed. 

3. Finding and sorting of planets is so hidden in the UI I don't know if people even know it exists. 

4. I want to issue more commands on the colony screen.  For example transforming, perhaps raiding or attaching others factions, guarding jump points, etc. 
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Phenir

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Re: Developer game mechanics that suck
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2024, 11:09:35 AM »

1. Not being able to run away without a story point.  Stop that stupid crap.  Also stop it with getting a bit of extra money on deals while we are on the topic of stupid game mechanics.  Seriously story points are the hardest to come by and so rare why would a player even spend them on your stupid crap?  If I get into a fight I know I will die I just altf4.  Problem solved.  Weee save scumming my favourite game feature!  And for an extra 10,000 money for a shipping deal what an insult.  If it is 1 billion I would still say no unless I can start to buy story points with money. Eliminate this crap immediately.  Replace it will losing CR if you run but if you are smart enough to know you can't win you shouldn't be punished so hard for not being an idiot.
Luckily story points come with the bonus exp feature which lets you earn them back. Using one on a retreat or extra money give 100% bonus exp, effectively making it free as long as you can spend the bonus exp. Also, the extra money is +50% of the regular reward, which scales with how much you are asked to deliver which itself scales with how much cargo space you have. That 1 sp could be spent to give upwards of 500k, which can be used to get some new ships and snowball towards the next sp.
Also, retreating has multiple mechanics to it. If you fleet is small or fast (your slowest burn vs their highest burn) enough, you can retreat without a fight but it might cost CR. You can always retreat from a station. If you engage the enemy fleet and manage to destroy enough DP of enemy ships and then order a retreat, you can just leave.
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2. Suicidal ships.  When you pick run they all die.  Weeee what a great game feature!!  If you know you are going to lose or want to engage in hit and run tactics what can you do in this game?  That's right nothing!! Weeee what fun when to take away all player agency! and might even kill enough to allow disengage and then as soon as you pick it all your ships decide to kill themselves.  To fix this getting to the disengage state should happen 5x fasted.  For both you and the AI if you run weapons should be disabled.  All power should go into the speed of escape and it should be x3.  Shields should still work.  This also has the added perk of resolving conflicts for both sides faster. 
IDk if you are using the full retreat command or individually giving orders but there's two types of retreat commands. One tells them to retreat while fighting back and avoiding enemies. The other tells them to make a beeline to the bottom asap. And you could also use a fast frigate as a distraction so the rest of your fleet can escape. And well, maybe if you weren't so stingy with your sp, you could just avoid a losing battle in the first place.
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3. Ships refusing to listen to commands.  Its so frustrating when you issue a command and the ship totally ignores if for 5 minutes strait until the command no longer matters then it goes to follow it and kills itself after everything else is also dead.  Go job.  When I issue a command FOLLOW IT 10000% of the time.  Do not screw around.  If the ship dies follow MY command then it is MY fault.  When it doesn't DO ANYTHING after a command whose fault is that? Hint the developer for taking away player agency.
Ships do try to follow orders but enemies can stop them. If there is an enemy between them and the point they want to get to, it's probably not going to be able to get there any time soon. Bad commander.
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4. Not enough command points to do anything useful.  Lets assume that actually issuing commands helped... then you should want to issue lots of commands and increase player agency right?  You have a whole UI interface for commands I never use as they are both useless and I have to little to bother learning them.  Give me 50 command points and allow better setting up of fleets and taking command points ahead of time so I don't have to repeat myself every battle then we are getting somewhere.
Invest in command point regen then. Grabbing objectives gives you one point immediately and com relays also boost your point regen. Support doctrine gives +100% regen and coordinated maneuvers gives you +50/25% per officered frigate/destroyer. Finally, operations center is a hullmod you can use for +250% regen. There is a ship that only costs 2 dp but has the 30 op to install it.
You can give multiple orders with one command point and even get like 10 seconds grace time after unpausing to give more orders with that same command point (grace times ends immediately if you leave the command screen though which is something I think should be changed).
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5.  Slow game, slow ships, slow getting into combat, slow travel.  Slow slow slow slow slow.  Respect my time.  Quit screwing around.  I have a x4 mod for travel and x2 mod for battle. Finally makes the game bearable. 
Use faster ships or tugs or surf storms or travel along slipstreams. Gates also exist once you unlock them.
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6. Not enough sim city options for your colonies.  SOOO much potential here.  I would say 60% of the fun comes from colony management.  I would highly suggest looking at some of the mods and making them vanilla for the game when it comes to development on this.
This isn't 4x.
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1. Star navigation has 2 seperate UI's. What the hell?  One for seeing all your crap like missions and then another for navigating somewhere. Get rid of the second.  Allow for proper navigation on the first map.  When I right click on a mission GO THERE.  Don't make me tab out, go to the star sector by trying to remember where it was, then go into the solar system screen then find the planet and then select it.  Its laughable how stupid this interface is.  In game are you telling me your crew is so stupid you have to spell out where to go every time?  Other than the find the bounty mini game forget that its stupid.
You can right click on the map in the intel screen to set a course.
Quote
2. No unified looting and navigating menus.  Nintendo managed to have an A and B button and allow for better navigation that your game. For example to exit a menu can be 1-4 EXCEPT when it is the escape key EXCEPT when it needs a mouse click EXCEPT when it is the G button except when it is R before G.  When you go to repair at a station it MIGHT be 3 EXCEPT when there is a special event where it could be 2 or 4 or 5.   This is so silly.  It make memorizing any keys impossible and the ergonomics of where you need to keep your fingers for quick commands makes no sense.  This system needs to be unified and fixed. 

3. Finding and sorting of planets is so hidden in the UI I don't know if people even know it exists. 

4. I want to issue more commands on the colony screen.  For example transforming, perhaps raiding or attaching others factions, guarding jump points, etc.
No comment on 2 or 3 but 4 is presumably an upcoming feature given the order tab.
Also, take a chill pill. This game is still under active development so it's going to have some rough edges.
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Megas

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Re: Developer game mechanics that suck
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2024, 11:20:33 AM »

While the OP is amusing, I sympathize with some of the points.

Orders are silly at times.  I recently learned that I need to use "Rally Civilian Craft" to force warships to actually stay at a spot I want them to guard.

Starsector is a slow game.  I need to multiply speed by at least x3 to get have gameplay speed similar to other games' normal speed.  x2 speed in combat is not quite fast enough, but it is the fastest it can run at without breaking fidelity.  I wish time shift would speed up the flagship instead of slowing the world, especially phase ships whose speed degrades as flux builds up.
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Sinigr

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Re: Developer game mechanics that suck
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2024, 08:22:27 AM »

1. Not being able to run away without a story point.  Stop that stupid crap.  Also stop it with getting a bit of extra money on deals while we are on the topic of stupid game mechanics.  Seriously story points are the hardest to come by and so rare why would a player even spend them on your stupid crap?  If I get into a fight I know I will die I just altf4.  Problem solved.  Weee save scumming my favourite game feature!  And for an extra 10,000 money for a shipping deal what an insult.  If it is 1 billion I would still say no unless I can start to buy story points with money. Eliminate this crap immediately.  Replace it will losing CR if you run but if you are smart enough to know you can't win you shouldn't be punished so hard for not being an idiot.
1 Story points are easy to get if you play game, instead of crying at forum, if you are noob it is not a problem of game. And they also almost always pay for themselves, after spending one you will then get two points instead of one for the same amount of experience, learn to read.

Oh, I got it, that topic is just a bunch of trash. However, part of it is still the bitter truth.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2024, 08:24:27 AM by Sinigr »
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Try to hunt it! ;)
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Rudragun

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Re: Developer game mechanics that suck
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2024, 10:06:35 AM »

A lot here. Developers (programmers) tend to respond best when you have specifics, like having a video or savefile, although some of this wouldn't fit in one video anyway or wouldn't be appropriate for video.

1. Not being able to run away without a story point. ...
... If you fleet is small or fast (your slowest burn vs their highest burn) enough, you can retreat without a fight ...
I'll say that I don't like this part. When I'm cruising around at 2x speed with an 11-burn fleet and accidentally get caught, I am very annoyed that I can't disengage for free. Is the cutoff 2 burn over the fastest enemy?
I especially do not like this when I am doing the story as story enemies know where I am even when they can't see me on their sensor, so I get caught by them just because they spawn super close and immediately wing in on me even though I have a 300 sensor profile and more burn.

3. Ships refusing to listen to commands.  ...
This one I feel like is almost a UI/labeling issue. If the tooltips were better and commands labelled more clearly, I would like this better. Like if the Rally Civilian Craft command were instead labelled Secure and said "this ship will move to the Secure waypoint and not move away even when under fire." To go even further, the UI could show the current Rally Civilian Craft name and tooltip instead if the ship is a civilian ship.

4. Not enough command points to do anything useful. ...
You can give multiple orders with one command point and even get like 10 seconds grace time after unpausing to give more orders with that same command point (grace times ends immediately if you leave the command screen though which is something I think should be changed).
I would love for this to change.

1. Star navigation has 2 separate UI's. What the hell? ... Allow for proper navigation on the first map. ...
The only thing I really want as far as "proper navigation" is the ability to shift-click multiple waypoints toward a destination. After I've gone through a part of the map and have an idea of where deep hyperspace is, I'd like to set my fleet to follow a series of lines that would avoid them. If there's a slipstream, I'll deal with it like I already have to.

2. No unified looting and navigating menus. ... This system needs to be unified and fixed.
This would be nice. I would like if <ESC> always exited and if the story-special events on port planets got moved to the first option on the bar instead of displacing the bar. I always check the bar, but sometimes I don't want to start a questline. Maybe the bar's description could change to include the story option (e.g. "Visit the Bar or the Shrine")

3. Finding and sorting of planets is so hidden in the UI I don't know if people even know it exists.
I use the Planet Search mod for this. It would be nice if it were vanilla.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2024, 10:18:41 AM by Rudragun »
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Alex

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Re: Developer game mechanics that suck
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2024, 10:08:03 AM »

instead of crying at forum, if you are noob it is not a problem of game
...
 that topic is just a bunch of trash

Please remember to treat the other forum members with respect, and familiarize yourself with the forum rules.
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Phenir

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Re: Developer game mechanics that suck
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2024, 07:59:14 PM »

1. Not being able to run away without a story point. ...
... If you fleet is small or fast (your slowest burn vs their highest burn) enough, you can retreat without a fight ...
I'll say that I don't like this part. When I'm cruising around at 2x speed with an 11-burn fleet and accidentally get caught, I am very annoyed that I can't disengage for free. Is the cutoff 2 burn over the fastest enemy?
I especially do not like this when I am doing the story as story enemies know where I am even when they can't see me on their sensor, so I get caught by them just because they spawn super close and immediately wing in on me even though I have a 300 sensor profile and more burn.
I think you have to meet the first condition, being small as in under a certain amount of dp, before you can be checked for the second. If you somehow had a very small but slow fleet, you wouldn't be able to disengage without a fight. This is mostly based on hearsay though, I haven't tested it myself. And as for your 11 burn fleet, is that the ships burn stat without navigation?
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eert5rty7u8i9i7u6yrewqdef

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Re: Developer game mechanics that suck
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2024, 08:18:11 PM »

Spoiler
1. Not being able to run away without a story point.  Stop that stupid crap.  Also stop it with getting a bit of extra money on deals while we are on the topic of stupid game mechanics.  Seriously story points are the hardest to come by and so rare why would a player even spend them on your stupid crap?  If I get into a fight I know I will die I just altf4.  Problem solved.  Weee save scumming my favourite game feature!  And for an extra 10,000 money for a shipping deal what an insult.  If it is 1 billion I would still say no unless I can start to buy story points with money. Eliminate this crap immediately.  Replace it will losing CR if you run but if you are smart enough to know you can't win you shouldn't be punished so hard for not being an idiot.
[close]
Always being able to run away would be a good idea for easy mode, but for normal I prefer the current system. It makes it a requirement that you have a good enough fleet to protect a large cargo fleet.
Also, you can run away once you've beaten a certain percentage of the enemy fleet, or 100DP, whichever is less. Which opens up a lot of options for partially defeating superior forces. With a few exceptions, the enemy will only deploy enough ships to defeat your deployed ships. So, deploying a small portion of your fleet, baiting the enemies to your spawn point, and then deploying the entirety of your combat fleet on that portion of the enemies fleet is a good way to kill enough of the enemies fleet to safely reach the retreat DP.
Once you've beaten this percent, you can always safely retreat without being pursued.

Spoiler
2. Suicidal ships.  When you pick run they all die.  Weeee what a great game feature!!  If you know you are going to lose or want to engage in hit and run tactics what can you do in this game?  That's right nothing!! Weeee what fun when to take away all player agency! and might even kill enough to allow disengage and then as soon as you pick it all your ships decide to kill themselves.  To fix this getting to the disengage state should happen 5x fasted.  For both you and the AI if you run weapons should be disabled.  All power should go into the speed of escape and it should be x3.  Shields should still work.  This also has the added perk of resolving conflicts for both sides faster. 
[close]
Same as the player, the enemy can deploy frigates along the side of the battle during a disengage attempt. In order to get through it without dying, you need ships that are at least as fast as the pursuers, or ships that defend slower cargo ships until they can retreat.
Given if you have the later you can typically handle normal battles, I recommend putting Safety Overrides and Unstable Injector on Hounds and Drams. Very little in the game will be fast enough to catch them.
Do not buy cruiser+ sized cargo and fuel haulers until you are certain you can defend them.

Spoiler
3. Ships refusing to listen to commands.  Its so frustrating when you issue a command and the ship totally ignores if for 5 minutes strait until the command no longer matters then it goes to follow it and kills itself after everything else is also dead.  Go job.  When I issue a command FOLLOW IT 10000% of the time.  Do not screw around.  If the ship dies follow MY command then it is MY fault.  When it doesn't DO ANYTHING after a command whose fault is that? Hint the developer for taking away player agency.
[close]
While there are a couple tweaks needed (eliminate will point at nearby enemy ships on its way to kill its target which slows it down), most of the commands are fine but don't explain what they do. So, I'll give you a brief explanation.
Defend = Go here at some point please. It has no leash, very little priority, and will mostly be ignored. Seems worthless, but it is useful for drawing battle lines for large fleets.
Eliminate = Move here immediately and kill this no matter what. Ships given this command will move in the direction of their target, but as mentioned will point at nearby enemy ships on their
                  way to the target. Likewise, it makes ships very aggressive, so use it cautiously.
Waypoint = Be in the general area. It works like a leash, and will keep ships from pursuing enemies past a certain point. Large groups of enemies can scare ships past their leash range.
Civilian Waypoint = Sit here and do not move, EVER.
Escort = Sit next to this ship, and never leave it. Incredibly short leash range, and can very easily get ships killed as they won't leave the ship they are escorting.
Retreat = Retreat while avoiding enemies, but point at and shoot any that approach. It had a bug that causes it to not retreat the moment the order is given, which has a couple other bugs. To
               get around this bug, issue a waypoint order to the bottom of the map, wait a couple seconds, then issue a retreat order.
Direct Retreat = Same as retreat, but ships will face towards the bottom of the map, thereby allowing forward movement systems to aid in their retreat. This has the same bug and solution as
                        normal retreat, and should only be given to ships with forwards movement systems, and given cautiously to ships with engines that do not have shield coverage.
There are some other orders, but they mostly do what you would expect them to do. If you don't want a ship following defend orders, set it to search and destroy, this is exactly the same as giving it no orders but it won't follow defend orders.

Spoiler
4. Not enough command points to do anything useful.  Lets assume that actually issuing commands helped... then you should want to issue lots of commands and increase player agency right?  You have a whole UI interface for commands I never use as they are both useless and I have to little to bother learning them.  Give me 50 command points and allow better setting up of fleets and taking command points ahead of time so I don't have to repeat myself every battle then we are getting somewhere.
[close]
Skills and the Operations Center hullmod greatly increase point regeneration. Every time you leave the command screen and begin piloting your ship again, you lose the remaining command time for that command point. If you need to issue commands and then see how things play out as you may need to issue more, turn on AI piloting, and un-pause time without leaving the command screen or by viewing any ship.

Spoiler
5.  Slow game, slow ships, slow getting into combat, slow travel.  Slow slow slow slow slow.  Respect my time.  Quit screwing around.  I have a x4 mod for travel and x2 mod for battle. Finally makes the game bearable. 
[close]
Play with high-tech and avoid the Paragon and Astral. You're welcome.
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