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[Thaago]

One thing the pretty successful Grendel highlights is just how disappointing the Harbinger is. Especially as they cost the same OP.

I've been piloting one most of my current run thanks to a 'lucky' salvage, and with an almost complete build it is just underwhelming: not tough enough to brawl, barely fast enough with every speed boosting skill stacked to dodge, too slow to outmaneuver omni shields, and the system is too short ranged to be easily used for support (unlike afflictor/shade) and has too short a duration (and too long a windup) to be very impactful outside of a few hard counter cases.

It's the only ship I would say is non-functional without skills: the phase skill is required. Without it I'd rate it worse than a hammerhead/sunder/enforcer and possibly worse than basic frigates. With the phase skill it catapults into being an acceptable player ship, except that in many ways it is still just worse than an Afflictor, because the afflictor's system is so much better and it has the speed to be 'tougher' in combat, despite being so much more fragile on paper.

Systems Expertise was unfortunately a disappointment: the ship has such a long base cooldown that while 33% reduction helps a lot, it doesn't make it good. Same with the range: the base is just so short that even with 50% more range (!) I still have to be close enough to the enemy to take damage (the usage windup is still there). And nothing helps the extremely short duration that lets only a few shots through before the target can get its shields up again. That is good vs low skill enemies when something like 2 ion pulsers can disable much of the enemy, but endgame enemies are resistant to being locked down thanks to the elite skills so that can fail.

One thing I'm happy about the ship is raw firepower: with phase anchor (holy crud 20 OP is so much on this ship!) and a combination of ion pulsers/heavy blasters/mining blasters (mix and match to your preference), it can lay out a serious punch. That does let it really lay into an enemy that it already overwhelmed/can't hit back hard. But in that situation the system goes down in value even further, as it doesn't not boost allied damage like the afflictor's does.

In terms of solutions: I think there are a couple of ways to go. A substantial increase in speed or armor, to lean into the dodging or brawling, would help it pick a niche instead of being stuck in the sticky middle. The system needs help - either in range so the ship can act like a Doom, hanging out behind allies to poke them with downed shields - or in frequency. In both cases it has to have a longer disruption so that other ships take advantage of it.

[TaLaR]

Right now Harbinger's system's only worthwhile use is to let a concentrated alpha strike through. Which requires precise timing on executing player's part, so it's fair to say that AI doesn't get almost any value out of the system.

Even then, there are simply no good weapons to alpha with - downsizing medium slots to AMBs is technically the highest burst, but Afflictor (or even Shade/AfflictorP) does that much better, so why bother? Phase Lances don't quite fit - too long active phase, not concentrated enough burst (cooldown to active ratio). Heavy blaster doesn't do enough with single shot and can't guarantee landing two (you may be able to corner-shot, exploiting the fact that AI raises shield in exact direction to target). Etc.

If we ignore Harbinger's system, phase anchor flux dumping playstyle would require same high burst energy weapon that doesn't quite exist to truly shine.

Harbinger needs something to be worthwhile. Afflictor is a far better assassin, trying to compete with it directly is likely to produce another balance-breaker. So maybe concentrate on support role: give Harbinger massive system range, with main use case being precise shield drop right as bombers or alpha strike from another ship are about to hit. Though unavoidable long-distance disable would be too annoying for the player as recipient, so maybe go even further: also make the disable longer lasting and AoE(no friendly fire) + longer build-up, but make it target an area instead of a ship, so that fleeing that area during build-up is an option.

[ubernoob]

Under player control I feel the opposite, Grendel has it's moments and excellent burst weapons but suffers from low speed (you get bullied by High Intensity Lasers, so cover is needed), but Harbinger with 3x Phase Lance (under player control and appropriate skills!) and a DPS-focused build can work around just about anything simply because of much higher speed and phase stats as well as good range from Advanced Optics + range stacking. You can dodge just about anything at ~1000SU and Phase lances let you abuse shooting corners easily.

But I do agree completely that under AI control it's shockingly bad, especially without officers. AI wastes the ability on inappropriate moments (it should count in bombers/torpedoes/potential DPS for the next second coming in on the target), lacks in survivability with questionable decision making (like cloaking under kinetic fire and staying cloaked, no rapid cloaking->uncloaking in some circumstances with Phase Anchor, tanking "low damage" autopulses without cloak) and doesn't have the game-breaking speed Afflictor has to control every fight. Armor helps a lot but is less important in my opinion.

Ideally, Harbinger behaviour should be sort of "fire and advance", cloaking at 0 flux to get within range, let out a burst, cloak again, using it's ability in between then repeat. Venting only while withdrawing from target or if enemies can't punish with beams and missiles. It should kite when there are faster enemies nearby but not spend too much time phased.

I'd like the ability get buffed to 2 charges (or even 1 charge so it stacks with SysExp) so you don't 'waste' charges by not using it or the cooldown decreased to 18/15 seconds, or do the inverse - increase cooldown but also increase how long target ship is overloaded. Range should be extended to 750SU instead of base 600 at minimum, with Escort Package or a range-focused Phase Lance build my weapons outrange the ability. It could also open up defensive use of the ability - I shock the enemy to cancel their high burst weapons so I can recloak or vent safely.

Even then, there are simply no good weapons to alpha with - downsizing medium slots to AMBs is technically the highest burst, but Afflictor (or even Shade/AfflictorP) does that much better, so why bother? Phase Lances don't quite fit - too long active phase, not concentrated enough burst (cooldown to active proportion). Heavy blaster doesn't do enough with single shot and can't guarantee landing two (you may be able to corner-shot, exploiting the fact that AI raises shield in exact direction to target). Etc.

If we ignore Harbinger's system, phase anchor flux dumping playstyle would require same high burst energy weapon that doesn't quite exist to truly shine.

On that account, using the Scalaron Blaster (Blackrock) and Animus Blaster (ORA) from modded on Harbingers I've found great success versus larger ships when it comes to disabling systems and cracking armor, they stack great with damage buffs and Phase Anchor! but I always went back to Phase Lances because it also doubles as a decent PD weapon to manually shoot down missiles and fighters with and the safety granted by range buffs. A good burst medium energy weapon would do a lot to improve the effectiveness of AI Harbingers, I agree.

[Goumindong]

Why is a Mining Blaster and Ion Pulser not enough burst?

1 mining blaster and 2 Ion Pulsers is 1200 HE dmg + 600 more armor damage and then another 5400 energy dmg with 36,000 EMP. (Before skills). (Provided you have enough flux)

That shouldn’t kill an onslaught but it should strip the armor off any cruiser and also disable all of its equipment and engines.


It’s 37 OP of equipment and has a net flux usage of 450 assuming perfect charge usage.

Extra dissipation here is unlikely to help at all except venting so lets max caps and were at 57 of 95 OP. RFC is 6 for 25% venting (112.5) but we may want vents anyway. Phase anchor is 20. This leaves 77 for 18 vents(630 regular) or 12 vents (570 regular) and RFC. (712 vent)

I am not sure phase anchor is all that good here. But it may be. If no we have another 10. We might also consider building some of those hull mods In. We might also consider unstable injector and aux thrusters.

[Princess of Evil]

Under player control I feel the opposite, Grendel has it's moments and excellent burst weapons but suffers from low speed (you get bullied by High Intensity Lasers, so cover is needed), but Harbinger with 3x Phase Lance (under player control and appropriate skills!) and a DPS-focused build can work around just about anything simply because of much higher speed and phase stats as well as good range from Advanced Optics + range stacking. You can dodge just about anything at ~1000SU and Phase lances let you abuse shooting corners easily.

In my experience, Grendel isn't particularly a good sniper. You can build it that way, but Eagle is better at that, and nearby thread shows how much people like snipers.
Grendel is a low-tech Accelerated Ammo Feed Safety Overrides Heavy Armor murder machine that uses phase to get into brawl range, preferably in the dead zone of opponent's weapons. It's an Afflictor that can get behind enemy lines and stay there. And with new buffs to weapon repair, its weapons are nearly impossible to knock out.

[ubernoob]

In my experience, Grendel isn't particularly a good sniper. You can build it that way, but Eagle is better at that, and nearby thread shows how much people like snipers.
Grendel is a low-tech Accelerated Ammo Feed Safety Overrides Heavy Armor murder machine that uses phase to get into brawl range, preferably in the dead zone of opponent's weapons. It's an Afflictor that can get behind enemy lines and stay there. And with new buffs to weapon repair, its weapons are nearly impossible to knock out.

Safety Overrides! Haven't tried that yet, but it looks very promising, 130 base speed + helmsmanship seems excellent for speed and dual purpose HMGs will do work on shields and missiles along with chainguns. I'll try this out for sure.

Been using 2x Heavy Needler 3x Light Needler 3x Heavy Mauler with Phase Anchor and while burst damage is phenomenal I did struggle with low speed.

[Thaago]

Why is a Mining Blaster and Ion Pulser not enough burst?

...

This is what I'm using to get what I consider a good level of firepower, but the issue is that the ship's system is so short duration that even with those high burst weapons, only a bit gets through a disrupted shield. It's not like AM blasters where you can dump the entire chunk of damage at once. It's not a bad chunk of damage vs destroyers and cruisers but its hardly a killing blow, which afflictors are landing with their shield dodging shots.

The burst is sometimes enough to disable enemy weapons, but not always: alpha core enemies in particular can shrug it off. The issue I'm running against is that the ship is not fast enough to get around shields - off axis shots can help, but not always - so I'm chewing through shields with ion pulsers. Which isn't bad, but also isn't great.

I'm running phase anchor + s mod expanded magazines for max charge regen (IE max firepower) and I think 12 vents, max caps (no fleet flux boosting skill yet, its on my list), and I would LOVE to be able to max my vents. The guns produce more flux than I can handle even with phase anchor due to all the regen. I am thinking of taking off my rear burst pds for more vents, even though that would leave the ship even more vulnerable to fighters and missiles.

[Amoebka]

Comparing ships to player-piloted afflictor is simply not a fair argument. I've recently fought a full-phase assassin fleet with level 6 officers in harbingers, and they did perfectly fine, killing all of my destroyers and frigates by the end of the battle. AI isn't great at using the disruptor, but it's even worse at estimating the threat enemy disruptors pose. Ships run off to 1v1 a Harbinger and die instantly all the time.

[Lawrence Master-blaster]

Right now Harbinger's system's only worthwhile use is to let a concentrated alpha strike through. Which requires precise timing on executing player's part, so it's fair to say that AI doesn't get almost any value out of the system.

FWIW, back when I had four Afflictors in my fleet, nothing scared me more than AI Harbingers.

[Draba]

I would like the system to be more useful, you can fly around in an afflictor and meaningfully contribute just by using amp.
In Harbinger that's not possible, super high DP cost and even with 5 points to reach Sysexp the system just isn't great (only "real" use is getting your strike through).

Harbinger losing the 3 Typhoons was necessary, maybe another step could be taken in the same direction?
Remove/downsize some mounts and slightly boost the system and/or further reduce deployment cost.

[Megas]

Harbinger's system is crippled.  Aside from too long recharge and too short overload, it also does not have enough range.  If I want to maximize range of Phase Lances, the beams will have more range than the system.  All Harbinger can do without its system is armor tank and shoot like Vanguard, but it does not have Rugged Construction to mitigate death, and Phase Anchor only protects one ship - no good if I want to fight with a pure phase fleet with twenty phase ships.  The only current fix to the system is to exploit Neural Reset (from Neural Link), but I generally have better ships to Neural Link with.

There is one use for Harbinger, and that low sensor ship (lower than cruisers and Ziggurat) with more DP than frigates on the campaign when building up a low sensor fleet to scare defenders away when attempting to raid worlds (for blueprints) while defenders orbit the world.  I tried Phantom-and-Revenant fleet only, but they get blocked by defenders, even by weak fleets like small pickets or big civilian merchant fleets.  Having enough military ships in the fleet will intimidate small defenders and let my fleet raid unopposed.  That said, I would prefer Harbinger to be more useful than invisible paper tiger for raiding and smuggling.

I am beginning to love pure phase fleets with Phase Field.  It is nice to easily sneak into heavily defended worlds buying whatever I want from any black market or to raid for items, or easily do stealth missions if they happen to be along the way for easy rep gain.  I will probably write more about phase ships in general in another post later.

[Cryovolcanic]

I have been experimenting with SO Grendel in sim. The AI is terrible. It can't beat the sim Eagle, let alone the Onslaught. It flies towards the enemy, phases to dodge a graviton beam, and then backs off when it's out of flux. It does that until it runs out of PPT. Reckless doctrine. If it would just unload its 3x HMG it would outflux the enemy instantly.

Against the Onslaught, it loves taking TPC volleys to the face until it's out of front armor. Then it phases, after eating all the TPC shots. Then it tries to circle-strafe. PD shreds its hull until almost zero, which is FINALLY when the Grendel circles to the back of the Onslaught and unloads all its damage. It comes close to killing the Onslaught but the residual PD in the back ends up killing it.

I've tried armor builds, unstable injector+engines builds, phase cloak builds, nothing seems to work. AI is terrible. It's even worse on Aggressive doctrine, it just won't approach the enemy at all. Just stays phased and backs off until it runs out of PPT.

The only heavy ship it can beat in sim is the Dominator. No officers.

[Megas]

One thing I'm happy about the ship is raw firepower: with phase anchor (holy crud 20 OP is so much on this ship!) and a combination of ion pulsers/heavy blasters/mining blasters (mix and match to your preference), it can lay out a serious punch.

But only if it has elite Field Modulation.  (EDIT:  I guess Ion Pulsers shut down enemy so it cannot shoot back.)  The long cloaking delay out of the box eats a lot of time before player can phase again after shooting if I am using weapons other than AMBs.  So many times I try to cloak after shooting, but I cannot because... oops, the coils are still recovering from decloaking (if I lack eFM).  This is mainly a problem with officers, although it can hurt the flagship if he cannot spare a point to Field Modulation.  I consider elite Field Modulation a must for any phase ship (other than Ziggurat thanks to its builtin phase coils)

I have been experimenting with SO Grendel in sim. The AI is terrible. It can't beat the sim Eagle, let alone the Onslaught. It flies towards the enemy, phases to dodge a graviton beam, and then backs off when it's out of flux. It does that until it runs out of PPT. Reckless doctrine. If it would just unload its 3x HMG it would outflux the enemy instantly.

I had similar problems with unskilled Grendel.  It loves to cower then die, and I tried long-range build with HVDs and Maulers.

[mosshadow]

I've actually had the worst luck fighting against Harbringers, I had a Paragon and an enemy Harbringer knocked out my shields while I was trying to fall back from an enemy Paragon bearing down on me. That got me killed as the enemy escorts took out my engines soon after.

[Zenaria]

Harbinger with ion pulser is bane to everyone.
you can't avoid or escape.

but the main issue is AI won't play daring like player.
you need someone to pull attention for it.
as well as mod phase anchor for faster cooldown.

i gonna blame pirate version of Afflictor for having low DP instead of Harbinger being too bad.