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[Killer of Fate]

the Venus wikipedia article quotes [linked image], utilizing the document u gave as a source... And the thing is that you've not provided an article disproving this... Which is uhhhhhhh... I can't just take you that at word... But uhhhhhhhhh, if you have something like that, please hand it over... I would love to read about it... Uhhhhhhhhh, though technically I'm really busy... So, it might take me a while...

The screenshot you embeded refers to using breathable air as lifting gas for the habitats, the doc that both wiki and I refer to, explicitly states that humans will need an oxygen supply on Venus. It's also pretty obvious from the atmosheric composition of Venus, which is roughly 96% CO2 and 3% N2, with a bunch of other gases making up that 1%.

no... The point is that CO2 is heavier than nitrogen and oxygen. So, they act as lifting gases, rising up to the upper spheres of the atmosphere. So that at some point you can suspend yourself and have an atmosphere that consists entirely of them. It's kinda how you have those spooky brine pools, except reverse. Same goes for sulfuric compounds... Probably.

[Nettle]

no... The point is that CO2 is heavier than nitrogen and oxygen. So, they act as lifting gases, rising up to the upper spheres of the atmosphere. So that at some point you can suspend yourself and have an atmosphere that consists entirely of them. It's kinda how you have those spooky brine pools, except reverse. Same goes for sulfuric compounds... Probably.

I guess that would be true, if Venus had any breathable air to begin with, but it doesn't. Not only the oxygen proportion on Venus is less than 0.1%, it's also not the kind of oxygen your body can process. The Venus oxygen is atomic and consists of single oxygen atom, the oxygen we breathe on Earth is molecular and consists of two bonded atoms.

[Killer of Fate]

no... The point is that CO2 is heavier than nitrogen and oxygen. So, they act as lifting gases, rising up to the upper spheres of the atmosphere. So that at some point you can suspend yourself and have an atmosphere that consists entirely of them. It's kinda how you have those spooky brine pools, except reverse. Same goes for sulfuric compounds... Probably.

I guess that would be true, if Venus had any breathable air to begin with, but it doesn't. Not only the oxygen proportion on Venus is less than 0.1%, it's also not the kind of oxygen your body can process. The Venus oxygen is atomic and consists of single oxygen atom, the oxygen we breathe on Earth is molecular and consists of two bonded atoms.

Oxygen exists in O2, because it's the most stable form, due to the fact that it achieves 8 valence electrons by sharing two of them between each other. A singular oxygen atom would have 6 valence electrons, and thus be a charged particle waiting to interact with something. From my understanding these kind of ionized particles only exist in super-heated states like for example the way you see auroras or inside the Sun. The Venus has average oxygen particles at temperatures we are talking about... And especially the temperatures we are talking about if it comes to existing in the habitable space above the clouds.

Plus, as I said... The proportions change depending on the distance from planet's surface, due to how various density of gases pushes some up and some down... This is why Venus appears to have white clouds when viewed from space, and the lower parts of the atmosphere are hideous yellow. Because Sulphur compounds get pushed down, and concentrate there. And oxygen and nitrogen get pushed up. Just like for example helium is pushed up on Earth, and disappears into the far up parts of the atmosphere.

linking some image references... Hope they are high enough resolution...

ps. the normal photos of Venus we see are usually heavily processed to underline contrast. NASA enjoys spicing things up for some reason... Recently they're even trying to revert the myth they spread that Neptune is deep blue, when in reality it's almost the same colour as Uranus...
https://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/catalog/PIA23791

Here's a page for a raw Venus photo
https://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/catalog/PIA10124

I was thinking that this could just have been a black-white photo, but wikipedia confirms my suspicion that it was not... And that it is just the natural colour of Venus...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus

[Princess of Evil]

I suppose the big question is how many is barely any, and what potency of acid? Do we have materials that can withstand the expected conditions for decades?

It's extremely concentrated - any water is rapidly turned into more sulfuric acid - but most of Venus sulfuric is in the clouds below; the livable layer is the top of troposphere, where stratosphere would be (if the atmosphere weren't this ridiculous).
Materials are pretty easy. Sulfuric likes metals and water. Just don't give it metals or something it could turn into water - even polyethylene works.

[Vanshilar]

I guess that would be true, if Venus had any breathable air to begin with, but it doesn't. Not only the oxygen proportion on Venus is less than 0.1%, it's also not the kind of oxygen your body can process. The Venus oxygen is atomic and consists of single oxygen atom, the oxygen we breathe on Earth is molecular and consists of two bonded atoms.

Eh I think the point is not that you can just walk outside on Venus, it's more that breathable air is a lifting gas over there, at an altitude that's at the right temperature and right pressure. So you can have a floating Cloud City on Venus which would be easier than a pressure vessel anywhere else. It'd also be protected from cosmic radiation and receive more solar energy for power.

No matter where you go you'll likely have to bring your own breathable air with you to a large extent, as well as all the other stuff necessary for life.

[Killer of Fate]

I guess that would be true, if Venus had any breathable air to begin with, but it doesn't. Not only the oxygen proportion on Venus is less than 0.1%, it's also not the kind of oxygen your body can process. The Venus oxygen is atomic and consists of single oxygen atom, the oxygen we breathe on Earth is molecular and consists of two bonded atoms.

Eh I think the point is not that you can just walk outside on Venus, it's more that breathable air is a lifting gas over there, at an altitude that's at the right temperature and right pressure. So you can have a floating Cloud City on Venus which would be easier than a pressure vessel anywhere else. It'd also be protected from cosmic radiation and receive more solar energy for power.

No matter where you go you'll likely have to bring your own breathable air with you to a large extent, as well as all the other stuff necessary for life.

okay, this is getting frustrating. Why on Earth would oxygen on Venus be existing in single-atomic form in the atmosphere where there is a temperature of about 0-100 degrees Celsius at 50 kilometers height???? What is this narrative?

A single atom oxygen is an ion that would have to bind to something in order to achieve an octet. In physics the only times when these kind of things exist solely as ions is when they are too energetically disturbed and therefore become unable to find bonds. Venus atmosphere is not a soup of plasma. These kind of ionized gases only exist like in the form of an aurora or something hundreds of kilometers from the surface of the planet.

[Nettle]

Oxygen exists in O2, because it's the most stable form, due to the fact that it achieves 8 valence electrons by sharing two of them between each other. A singular oxygen atom would have 6 valence electrons, and thus be a charged particle waiting to interact with something. From my understanding these kind of ionized particles only exist in super-heated states like for example the way you see auroras or inside the Sun. The Venus has average oxygen particles at temperatures we are talking about... And especially the temperatures we are talking about if it comes to existing in the habitable space above the clouds.

Atomic oxygen is pretty common in the upper atmospheres of all cosmic bodies; on Earth, both the mesosphere and thermosphere consist predominately of atomic oxygen. Or, more precisely, it's one of the few trace gases you would find there. It's infamous for causing rapid corrosion in spacecraft. Atomic oxygen is not stable, just like you mentioned, and will readily bind with other molecules given the chance, including itself; it exists solely as a part of some other process.

Plus, as I said... The proportions change depending on the distance from planet's surface, due to how various density of gases pushes some up and some down... This is why Venus appears to have white clouds when viewed from space, and the lower parts of the atmosphere are hideous yellow. Because Sulphur compounds get pushed down, and concentrate there. And oxygen and nitrogen get pushed up. Just like for example helium is pushed up on Earth, and disappears into the far up parts of the atmosphere.

Right, but the upper atmosphere layers are exactly where you would find atomic oxygen. On Venus, atomic oxygen is probably the byproduct of photolysis. My fault here for mixing up cause and effect earlier. It's not like you can't breathe on Venus because all oxygen is atomic; rather, you can't breathe on Venus because the only little oxygen it has is found as atomic oxygen, being the byproduct of some other process.

[Killer of Fate]

From what I read this effect occurs at areas above 160 kilometers of Earth's atmosphere. And mostly bothers space equipment emplaced in orbit. The way it works is that stellar radiation ionizes O2, causing it to have its bonds broken. And then I'm assuming singular oxygen atoms patrol for something they can interact with, thus corroding equipment that may enter vacuum.

Because the atmosphere isn't vacuum. An ionized particle will immediately bind back into a normal form, as soon as it loses its excess energy. So, no... Oxygen in the mesosphere does not exist in singular atomic form. It's average O2. Same goes for Venus.

sources???
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrosion_in_space
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/20170006623/downloads/20170006623.pdf

[Vanshilar]

okay, this is getting frustrating. Why on Earth would oxygen on Venus be existing in single-atomic form in the atmosphere where there is a temperature of about 0-100 degrees Celsius at 50 kilometers height? What is this narrative?

Oh I'm not saying anything about what form oxygen is in, I'm just saying that AFAIK there's not really breathable air anywhere in the Solar System other than Earth, so "the atmosphere on Venus isn't breathable" is not a knock against it compared to any other option.

[SCC]

From the gameplay perspective, I don't mind this.
How it can be explained, on the other hand, is rough. Mixing "cold" and "mild climate" sounds reasonable. Less heat (energy) means weather patterns become less extreme and less frequent. A "hot" condition would mean the opposite, which would naturally cause issues. The explanations I can think of would be that geography with certain areas that would be shielded from the worst of the winds and sandstorms, or there would be natural currents that averaged the temperatures and made the weather predictable, even if still dangerous.

[Nettle]

From what I read this effect occurs at areas above 160 kilometers of Earth's atmosphere. And mostly bothers space equipment emplaced in orbit. The way it works is that stellar radiation ionizes O2, causing it to have its bonds broken. And then I'm assuming singular oxygen atoms patrol for something they can interact with, thus corroding equipment that may enter vacuum.

'Atomic oxygen' is a single free radical atom, O(3P), and on Earth, it occurs due to the photodissociation of O2 and O3. It is different from the ionized form of atomic oxygen (O+) that makes up the ionosphere.

Because the atmosphere isn't vacuum. An ionized particle will immediately bind back into a normal form, as soon as it loses its excess energy. So, no... Oxygen in the mesosphere does not exist in singular atomic form. It's average O2. Same goes for Venus.

Any given free radical oxygen atom wouldn't exist for long, sure, but they are nevertheless sufficiently present and observable in the mesosphere and lower thermosphere due to being an integral part of other ongoing processes. You can turn off the lightbulb in your room and have the photons immediately absorbed by your walls, but that doesn't mean they weren't present and measurable while the lightbulb was on.

And in the end, it honestly doesn't even matter whether you want to think of Venus oxygen as molecular or atomic; there wouldn't be enough for you to take a single breath, regardless of the atmosphere layer. Just look up the atmospheric composition of Venus. The oxygen presence is less than 0.1%.

[Killer of Fate]

From what I read this effect occurs at areas above 160 kilometers of Earth's atmosphere. And mostly bothers space equipment emplaced in orbit. The way it works is that stellar radiation ionizes O2, causing it to have its bonds broken. And then I'm assuming singular oxygen atoms patrol for something they can interact with, thus corroding equipment that may enter vacuum.

'Atomic oxygen' is a single free radical atom, O(3P), and on Earth, it occurs due to the photodissociation of O2 and O3. It is different from the ionized form of atomic oxygen (O+) that makes up the ionosphere.

Because the atmosphere isn't vacuum. An ionized particle will immediately bind back into a normal form, as soon as it loses its excess energy. So, no... Oxygen in the mesosphere does not exist in singular atomic form. It's average O2. Same goes for Venus.

Any given free radical oxygen atom wouldn't exist for long, sure, but they are nevertheless sufficiently present and observable in the mesosphere and lower thermosphere due to being an integral part of other ongoing processes. You can turn off the lightbulb in your room and have the photons immediately absorbed by your walls, but that doesn't mean they weren't present and measurable while the lightbulb was on.

And in the end, it honestly doesn't even matter whether you want to think of Venus oxygen as molecular or atomic; there wouldn't be enough for you to take a single breath, regardless of the atmosphere layer. Just look up the atmospheric composition of Venus. The oxygen presence is less than 0.1%.

It's not O 3p, it's not atomic oxygen. (Unless I'm misunderstanding you). The thing you're referring to is a triplet and singlet, these are reactive oxygen species, which seem to exist in bound form, but possessive of certain traits that cause them to be ridiculously reactive. They do not seem to be related to the process of ionization via stellar radiation at high altitudes. But they are not atomic in nature. They are compounds. The triplet oxygen (linked image) is called dioxygen, because there are literally two of them. These are, I think, radical oxygen.

The atomic oxygen is ionized oxygen that occupies upper levels of atmosphere, because stellar radiation decays O2 into a pair of O +2, not O +, because it has 6 valence electrons. So it needs additional 2 electrons to complete its octet. [Linked image]

Because upper layers of atmosphere are a vacuum, atomic oxygen is unable to bind itself to anything. [ps. this part could be inaccurate, not a spec on this matter]. Because there is nothing out there to react with. Thus they are competing against the process of ionization and losing, causing them to change ratios to an extreme point. At 400 kilometers atomic oxygen forms 95% of available oxygen.

Atomic oxygen is a highly reactive form of oxygen, I assume when existing at non-ridiculous energy state. Looking for anything it can bind itself to, which is why it damages space equipment. Because immediately when encountering it, it reacts with it. Causing corrosion, etc.. Already mentioned a source before in previous post...

The reason why Venus doesn't have atomic oxygen at the level of 50 kilometers, is cause A - that is too low even for Earth's standards of atmosphere density. And B - Venus' atmosphere is more dense, which means absolute vacuum occurs significantly later than on Earth. Venus atmosphere is dense enough to be felt as a 1000 kilometer deep ocean when at the surface of the planet. This is why at 50 kilometers it is experienced as standard 1 bar or something... Which is perfectly acceptable habitable pressure.

[Princess of Evil]

Both of you are right, you know that?
There is atomic oxygen on Venus. In upper atmosphere layers. It's part of the process that turns any water on Venus into sulfuric acid. 50-65km layer isn't "upper", it's the upper part of the lowest atmosphere layer.

[Nettle]

It's not O 3p, it's not atomic oxygen. (Unless I'm misunderstanding you). The thing you're referring to is a triplet and singlet, these are reactive oxygen species, which seem to exist in bound form, but possessive of certain traits that cause them to be ridiculously reactive. They do not seem to be related to the process of ionization via stellar radiation at high altitudes. But they are not atomic in nature. They are compounds. The triplet oxygen (linked image) is called dioxygen, because there are literally two of them. These are, I think, radical oxygen.

The 3P part in O is just one of the possible electron configurations, admittedly irrelevant for the purpose of this discussion, should just use O in the future - a single atom of oxygen. I'm definitely not referring to dioxygen (a molecule, literally just the O2 you breathe in with air) or ROS (formed from O2).

The atomic oxygen is ionized oxygen that occupies upper levels of atmosphere, because stellar radiation decays O2 into a pair of O +2, not O +, because it has 6 valence electrons. So it needs additional 2 electrons to complete its octet. [Linked image]

Oxygen, just like all elements, can exist as atoms, molecules, or ions. However, I'm specifically referring to free radical oxygen atoms here, not oxygen ions.

Because upper layers of atmosphere are a vacuum, atomic oxygen is unable to bind itself to anything. [ps. this part could be inaccurate, not a spec on this matter]. Because there is nothing out there to react with. Thus they are competing against the process of ionization and losing, causing them to change ratios to an extreme point. At 400 kilometers atomic oxygen forms 95% of available oxygen.

Neither the mesosphere nor the thermosphere directly border the vacuum of space (that would be the exosphere), but whatever. I don't understand why you are so focused on ionization; there are more ways to get free radical oxygen atoms.

The reason why Venus doesn't have atomic oxygen at the level of 50 kilometers, is cause A - that is too low even for Earth's standards of atmosphere density. And B - Venus' atmosphere is more dense, which means absolute vacuum occurs significantly later than on Earth. Venus atmosphere is dense enough to be felt as a 1000 kilometer deep ocean when at the surface of the planet. This is why at 50 kilometers it is experienced as standard 1 bar or something... Which is perfectly acceptable habitable pressure.

Atomic oxygen on Venus was observed through indirect measurements, but fairly recently we had a direct detection at around 100km altitude. It occurs mostly in the dayside through the process of CO2 photolysis that I mentioned a while ago. I never really argued at what exact altitude O occurs on Venus in the first place, just that it does make up some abysmall % of Venus atmosphere.

Also, this is straying really far from the starting point of our discussion. A rather straight-forward claim you made about the Venus atmosphere being breathable at high altitudes. Care to get back to that?

[Killer of Fate]

It's not O 3p, it's not atomic oxygen. (Unless I'm misunderstanding you). The thing you're referring to is a triplet and singlet, these are reactive oxygen species, which seem to exist in bound form, but possessive of certain traits that cause them to be ridiculously reactive. They do not seem to be related to the process of ionization via stellar radiation at high altitudes. But they are not atomic in nature. They are compounds. The triplet oxygen (linked image) is called dioxygen, because there are literally two of them. These are, I think, radical oxygen.

The 3P part in O is just one of the possible electron configurations, admittedly irrelevant for the purpose of this discussion, should just use O in the future - a single atom of oxygen. I'm definitely not referring to dioxygen (a molecule, literally just the O2 you breathe in with air) or ROS (formed from O2).

The atomic oxygen is ionized oxygen that occupies upper levels of atmosphere, because stellar radiation decays O2 into a pair of O +2, not O +, because it has 6 valence electrons. So it needs additional 2 electrons to complete its octet. [Linked image]

Oxygen, just like all elements, can exist as atoms, molecules, or ions. However, I'm specifically referring to free radical oxygen atoms here, not oxygen ions.

Because upper layers of atmosphere are a vacuum, atomic oxygen is unable to bind itself to anything. [ps. this part could be inaccurate, not a spec on this matter]. Because there is nothing out there to react with. Thus they are competing against the process of ionization and losing, causing them to change ratios to an extreme point. At 400 kilometers atomic oxygen forms 95% of available oxygen.

Neither the mesosphere nor the thermosphere directly border the vacuum of space (that would be the exosphere), but whatever. I don't understand why you are so focused on ionization; there are more ways to get free radical oxygen atoms.

The reason why Venus doesn't have atomic oxygen at the level of 50 kilometers, is cause A - that is too low even for Earth's standards of atmosphere density. And B - Venus' atmosphere is more dense, which means absolute vacuum occurs significantly later than on Earth. Venus atmosphere is dense enough to be felt as a 1000 kilometer deep ocean when at the surface of the planet. This is why at 50 kilometers it is experienced as standard 1 bar or something... Which is perfectly acceptable habitable pressure.

Atomic oxygen on Venus was observed through indirect measurements, but fairly recently we had a direct detection at around 100km altitude. It occurs mostly in the dayside through the process of CO2 photolysis that I mentioned a while ago. I never really argued at what exact altitude O occurs on Venus in the first place, just that it does make up some abysmall % of Venus atmosphere.

Also, this is straying really far from the starting point of our discussion. A rather straight-forward claim you made about the Venus atmosphere being breathable at high altitudes. Care to get back to that?

all atmosphere borders the vacuum of space because vacuum of space is not an instant but gradual transition. You can easily imagine this by the fact that Mt Everest has air densities too low for an average human, and thus it is needed to have high altitude breathing apparatus to prevent altitude sickness... This mechanic of air growing more and more thin in conjunction with stellar radiation is what causes ions to be as prevalent as they are in the atmosphere, and it is what causes atomic oxygen to exist for longer than basically nothing...

Di-oxygen, 3P is a triplet oxygen, that is a very specific kind of oxygen pair with two unbound electrons. This free radical oxygen compound does not consist of a singular oxygen atom. Instead it is a pair, just like normal O2, it's just way more reactive. I've already linked you a diagram showing you how it looks like. It is not a singular atom.

Atomic oxygen is a singular ion, and it will try to rebind itself into a stable form. Usually O2. A singular atomic oxygen is not a stable form, and will only exist for long periods of time as an ion inside vacuum or plasma... Which is why it was detected at the height of 100 kilometers, because air density is too small for it to rapidly rebind, causing it to fall into a strange equilibrium where oxygen ions are more common than oxygen pairs... Atomic oxygen prevalence is detected at Earth at the height of above 160 kilometers. Which means on Venus that is significantly higher, because the atmosphere there is more dense. And nearly all oxygen below that will exist in stable O2 form. With all singular atom oxygen ions existing in very small quantities and for very short periods of time.

Both of you are right, you know that?
There is atomic oxygen on Venus. In upper atmosphere layers. It's part of the process that turns any water on Venus into sulfuric acid. 50-65km layer isn't "upper", it's the upper part of the lowest atmosphere layer.

The dissolving of SO2 does not create oxygen ions. It creates ions of HSO3 - and H +, or something. Would be glad if you linked the equation if it does. Cause this could be a mistake on my research part.
[linked image] according to wikipedia.

source: previously mentioned,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfur_dioxide