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[Achi Cirno]

I couldn't beat it. I think it's a more difficult in the new version because capital ships don't always come out last, and they are much harder for this fleet to handle if they are supported by any other Remnant ships.

And thought I'd try it. In theory, poor shields should make it a good target. However, I lost several times in a row - the Dragonfires run out of ammo. I suppose I could retreat and re-engage, but at that point I might as well bring a stronger fleet; this isn't exactly a difficult fight. Also, during the fight, I saw *a lot* of Dragonfires get shot down by the point-defense of this fleet, mostly by Devastators on the Onslaughts.

I finally found a pair of weak-ish Ordos with just a single Radiant without Paladin PD!
And ended losing to this one, a couple of times in a row, too - the Manticores/Dragonfires are very effective, up until they, again, run out of ammo and can't do the job.

And finally, this is a battle the Manticore fleet can win comfortably. I lost a few ships, but if I was more careful/better with orders, this may have been avoided.

Then, I tried the same battle, but replaced the Dragonfires with Typhoons. The Manticore fleet *still* won the fight! It was less comfortable and there were a few more losses, but I think the build could be improved to work better with Typhoons and give them a little more supporting kinetic damage, for example. Something like a Mark 9 and 3 Light Dual AC's, perhaps. Or, as Thaago mentioned, Harpoons and Sabots linked with other weapons, if we're going for "optimal".

Overall, though - it's a neat build, and I could see using it to support something else. It doesn't seem that strong by itself, though? The low ammo of the Dragonfire is a real problem when it comes to fighting anything even slightly more challenging. And, again, you could retreat to reload, but that costs supplies and makes the fight take more real-world time, too. I don't think this shows a problem with the Dragonfire's power level, if anything, it shows that the low ammo does act as an effective limitation, and that it does get a little extra power in exchange, while the ammo lasts.

Hi: thanks for the answering. I've giving your answers back to the community

About the build of the manticore, here it is:

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Skill set:

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The battle size is 200, and dragonfire is set to alternative. The thoughts of this fleet is killing smaller target at first then swarm larger ships and kill it with dragonfire.
Gauss is being choosed due to its excellent against frigates and destroyers which no damage go to waste, and helps killing cruisers too(with some dragonfire assisting at 1500 range).
Convert hangar also helps killing frigates and distracting PD. Btw harpoon has about 8400 total damage, and dragonfire got 8000 which is still a lot. Some command in Tab is required, so we got a command center kite.

Safe retreat after firing all the torp is also an option, and was used in some scenarios. There're some point that wasn't made very clear we do appologize (devastator against pure dragonfire swarm, the exact fleet composition, etc), but more comparison with detailed fleet compo&combat result is in progress and will be posted.

Thanks


Quick harpoon comparison video made by the same guy, though I'm going to ask my friend to do the detailed combat result. It struggles when trying to finish off radiant. The total damage of a medium harpoon is 9000 and dragonfire is 8000 but DEM got higher hit-rate as saw before.

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[Alex]

Thank you! Ok, good, what I was trying wasn't too far off. I thought it was interesting that the Jackhammer did at least as well in my tests so far.

I was wondering - did this fleet start out as a PvP fleet? It almost feels like it might have, but of course I can't be sure.

... but more comparison with detailed fleet compo&combat result is in progress and will be posted.

Looking forward to seeing it, thank you!

(Just to let you know, the chances of me making more changes prior to release are close to zero, since the release is quite soon. But, I will absolutely look at your feedback in detail and consider it carefully.)

[BigBrainEnergy]

It's interesting hearing the perspective of the chinese community, and I appreciate the time taken to explain your point of view and provide videos. That being said I'm not convinced at all that dragonfires are actually strong.

The manticore fleet was only getting 42% bonus exp and still lost a ship. I have seen videos against much more difficult fleets lose nothing. I even made some videos like that. For example:

video

https://youtu.be/Ztri1b867gQ?si=PeDUmomUrKmnItxG

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This was before nerfing squalls and apogees to be fair, but something like this would still work just fine even now. The remnants at 100% bonus xp were destroyed easily, the nerfs were not big enough to overcome that gap. I don't even consider this fleet exceptionally good. Other community members have made plenty of fleets stronger than this. I can only assume that either the dragonfire is simply a trendy weapon in the CN community and will be replaced by better designs over time, or that the dragonfire is much better in pvp since I don't have any experience in that type of battle.

[Bungee_man]

Beating a single ordo with a sub-ordo helping it isn't really any indication of being OP, especially with an S-modded fleet built around Safety Overrides ships, extensive use of commands, and an end-of-tree skill that appears to be getting nerfed in the next update. Some recent videos have shown fairly balanced ships with loadouts nobody is claiming are OP fighting five ordos at once. There are smaller fleets that can win against similar enemies much more convincingly, and with the benefit of not being damaged and completely drained of CR at the end of the fight.

I think the general consensus, at least in the English community, is that the Dragonfire is fairly weak, and might be underpowered. Its intended platform, the Pegasus, is far, far better with the longer-ranged hurricanes, and most other ships will run out of ammo before accomplishing much of anything. The Gryphon wants to be a backline support ship, meaning it needs something with better range, the LP monitor generally does better with something that has more ammo and deals hard flux given its lack of other weaponry, and the Conquest generally wants something that can reliably help it win the flux war, to say nothing of the Executor, which absolutely needs a source of either fighter coverage or hard flux in the missile slots.


I will say that the talk of PvP starsector is interesting. I remember a few people in the English community built some proof-of-concept mods for having two people fly ships at the same time, but I don't remember it going farther than that. Did the Chinese community figure out a way to make real-time PvP viable?

[TheLaughingDead]

I will say that the talk of PvP starsector is interesting. I remember a few people in the English community built some proof-of-concept mods for having two people fly ships at the same time, but I don't remember it going farther than that. Did the Chinese community figure out a way to make real-time PvP viable?

I dunno if they made a synchronized multiplayer mod but there are definitely "PvP" Starsector tournaments where different players make fleets according to certain rules/restraints and then the fleets are pitted against each other or a common opponent. Some regulars in this very forum have served as announcers in these tournaments (Thaago comes to mind).
I've watched a couple, but most of the tournaments allow mod ships/weapons so I don't really know what's going on in them, build-wise.

[Thaago]

Yup, its purely AI vs AI. I haven't participated in a while now so I'm not sure exactly what is "meta", but back when I did the winner was usually missile+fighter spam (sometimes SO as well, depending on what mods were allowed), with wide SO gun-based fleets a kind of "always good" option. The occasional exceptionally well built gun fleet could do well too but that was much rarer and most gun fleets fell flat vs the cheese. Oh and mod superships that broke the AI would also do pretty well (like cathedrals often won because the other side would just glitch out and not try to shoot it).

[SCC]

I played in the 6th, 7th and 8th tournaments. 7th I joined when I really skylab have and I straight up have no recollection of it. 6th I won through the power of Perditions (although low-tech is also naturally missile heavy). In the 8th I had a pretty good showing by combining mini-mine strike carriers with TheKart's glass cannon absurd range capital ship. The idea is to find something that makes the other fleet ineffective at fighting back, typically a single gimmick. The other thing is that typically you aren't concerned with staying power, especially in PvP. Losing ships only matters if you lose more of them than your opponent.

[Bungee_man]

Yup, its purely AI vs AI. I haven't participated in a while now so I'm not sure exactly what is "meta", but back when I did the winner was usually missile+fighter spam (sometimes SO as well, depending on what mods were allowed), with wide SO gun-based fleets a kind of "always good" option. The occasional exceptionally well built gun fleet could do well too but that was much rarer and most gun fleets fell flat vs the cheese. Oh and mod superships that broke the AI would also do pretty well (like cathedrals often won because the other side would just glitch out and not try to shoot it).

Ah, are those what was being talked about? I think I remember the "meta" was the pirate falcon, from a discussion somewhere else.

Now that I think of it, did anyone ever go anywhere with that mod that allowed online multiplayer? It had limitations, but it seemed like it had amazing potential.

[Marisa]

I think the flux when the dragonfire is launched should be increased so that the efficiency is only slightly higher than that of the beam of the same specification to limit the destructive power of small ships and ships that can quickly reload missiles, after all, torpedoes should be a high-risk and high-reward weapon, and dragon fire, although there is little ammunition, can allow small ships to easily cause a lot of damage from a safe distance, and the ammunition is gone, just change it, and there is almost no loss. At the same time, increasing the FLUX when firing is also more in line with the essence of its beam weapon

[Anvel]

My god, dragonfire torpedo is weak, not op, for example omega small missile with perk and missile racks is 9x1000 energy/flux damage and it regenerates, simple 6 dp soed brawler gonna rip that manticore to shreds. People keep arguing about the problem that don't exist.

[Nettle]

My god, dragonfire torpedo is weak, not op, for example omega small missile with perk and missile racks is 9x1000 energy/flux damage and it regenerates, simple 6 dp soed brawler gonna rip that manticore to shreds. People keep arguing about the problem that don't exist.

While I don't disagree with general consensus that DEM's generally underperform, comparing regular weapons to [REDACTED] ones is just silly.

[Megas]

While I don't disagree with general consensus that DEM's generally underperform, comparing regular weapons to [REDACTED] ones is just silly.

Comparing standard human weapons to Omega weapons is useful in that if the Omega is too balanced compared to balanced human weapons, then the Omega weapon is not strong enough, assuming Omega weapons remain as limited, non-renewable items or drops (with high sale value).

For example, take Volatile Particle Driver.  Despite being hybrid, why would I use it instead of other heavy kinetics (Mark IX or Storm Needler) in a heavy ballistics mount, especially on ships with Heavy Ballistics Integration (VPD counts as energy for mods, so no -10 OP discount)?  It is good only for those stuck with energy mounts, but even the heavy human energy weapons (autopulse and plasma) do not seem too far behind, if that.

[Anvel]

My god, dragonfire torpedo is weak, not op, for example omega small missile with perk and missile racks is 9x1000 energy/flux damage and it regenerates, simple 6 dp soed brawler gonna rip that manticore to shreds. People keep arguing about the problem that don't exist.

While I don't disagree with general consensus that DEM's generally underperform, comparing regular weapons to [REDACTED] ones is just silly.

It's just that people keep posting the same posts about how strong beam missiles are (they are not) and ask for a nerf  . Beam missiles need a look at them that's for sure, but they must be buffed to be viable.

[Achi Cirno]

Ordo but now with Reaper video(better than harpoon):

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Escort Package video:

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Hullmod Made by AnyIDelse based on the patch note:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1fmxG1NRdwsxlsKZ68mn9h0Km8jyLQnyV/view?usp=sharing