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Author Topic: Starsector 0.97a (Released) Patch Notes  (Read 173997 times)

FooF

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Re: Starsector 0.97a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1215 on: February 20, 2024, 11:51:48 AM »

Hah! I was actually thinking of this as only giving bonus XP for elite skills you've spent SP on, not just random finds - the idea being that you don't "lose" that investment, over time, if you dismiss them. And not that you get a bonus SP for finding a random guy in a pod - that seems like far too much of a reward!

Getting SP for dismissing a random guy does sound like too much. +1 to the idea of refunding Elite Skills on officers and Mercs for found officers. I made the mistake of respecing out of Cybernetic Augmentation and lost all the extra skills on officers. I mean, I know there is a prompt but it didn’t dawn on me until afterwards that all those SP were lost. I’m not saying those should be refunded but …maybe? It was literally 8 SP.

I do think it interesting that all SP expenditures in story missions tend to be “avoid consequences” or “avert conflict” or, in general, “make things easier.” What if there were SP-granting options for taking on extra challenge? Instead of spending an SP to avoid the Pirate Armada, you boast you can take out their whole fleet with just your flagship (+1 SP). I know that incentivizes skill and whatnot, but that’s just one off the cuff example. I’m sure there are plenty of opportunities to gain a SP at the expense of something else: a harder battle, some sort of handicap, destroying a valuable but dangerous object, etc.

« Last Edit: February 20, 2024, 11:53:49 AM by FooF »
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Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.97a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1216 on: February 20, 2024, 12:03:26 PM »

Getting SP for dismissing a random guy does sound like too much. +1 to the idea of refunding Elite Skills on officers and Mercs for found officers. I made the mistake of respecing out of Cybernetic Augmentation and lost all the extra skills on officers. I mean, I know there is a prompt but it didn’t dawn on me until afterwards that all those SP were lost. I’m not saying those should be refunded but …maybe? It was literally 8 SP.

Hmm. Maybe bonus XP for those? I'll make a note. And perhaps likewise for losing the 3rd s-mod.

I do think it interesting that all SP expenditures in story missions tend to be “avoid consequences” or “avert conflict” or, in general, “make things easier.” What if there were SP-granting options for taking on extra challenge? Instead of spending an SP to avoid the Pirate Armada, you boast you can take out their whole fleet with just your flagship (+1 SP). I know that incentivizes skill and whatnot, but that’s just one off the cuff example. I’m sure there are plenty of opportunities to gain a SP at the expense of something else: a harder battle, some sort of handicap, destroying a valuable but dangerous object, etc.

Yeah, I get what you mean. I think that naturally happens for tougher fights that grant you more XP, though? Not just through the "extra XP for fight difficulty" (which I think illustrates a lot of the trouble with trying to incentivize "challenge" in a too-direct way), but just through getting more XP from the harder opponents.

These things sound like fun, but there's an extremely thin and flimsy line between "fun" and "so, this is the thing you gotta do to farm story points". "Fighting tough enemies" sounds like about the best - gameplay-wise - way to do that. Any kind of more artificial challenge... I mean, it *could* work, but the odds of it being exploitable in some way and becoming "the thing to do" are just very high. The game offers you a lot of ways to handle things, so you can't really control for all of them to make sure whatever arbitrary set of criteria for a "challenge" aren't made a joke of in some way, if that makes sense.

... destroying a valuable but dangerous object, etc.

*cough* try tossing the PK into a black hole *cough*
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Siffrin

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Re: Starsector 0.97a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1217 on: February 20, 2024, 12:10:33 PM »

Give us the option to turn them into mercs on the spot.
Ouch, Officer Management is not gonna like that.
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Doctorhealsgood

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Re: Starsector 0.97a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1218 on: February 20, 2024, 12:17:35 PM »

Officer management was already unpopular apparently anyways
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SCC

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Re: Starsector 0.97a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1219 on: February 20, 2024, 12:31:22 PM »

To elaborate, turning officer icycles into merc hotpockets should be free. It would make finding an officer always a good thing. You like the officer's skills? There you go, keep it permanently! You don't like it? Well, that's fine, you just get a free mercenary. I mean, you did just save his life. A little gratitude would be nice indeed.
Ouch, Officer Management is not gonna like that.
Mercenaries have been in the game for quite some time already.

Nettle

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Re: Starsector 0.97a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1220 on: February 20, 2024, 12:35:43 PM »

I employ officer management whenever my desired fleet composition calls for it. Even just two extra officers stationed on high-value frigates can make a big impact. Mercenary officers complete randomness just isn't very appealing right now, unless they do actually have presets, and I'm spreading misinformation here.
And since I'm talking about mercenary officers anyway, what do you guys think about making mercenary officers follow fleet doctrine instead of having a personality and generating them with skill presets?
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Mishrak

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Re: Starsector 0.97a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1221 on: February 20, 2024, 12:42:40 PM »

And since I'm talking about mercenary officers anyway, what do you guys think about making mercenary officers follow fleet doctrine instead of having a personality and generating them with skill presets?

Yes and yes.  Their complete randomness is rather hard to interact with.  I guess the fact that they can spawn with 6 skills is a nice boon, but it's not worth an SP for dead skills.  The additional SP cost tends to discourage me from interacting with these anyway.  I'd rather pay them exorbitant amounts of credits than an SP.

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Twilight Sentinel

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Re: Starsector 0.97a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1222 on: February 20, 2024, 12:44:34 PM »

Hmm, would a system where you can permanently turn an officer into a mercenary at any time work for this?
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Mishrak

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Re: Starsector 0.97a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1223 on: February 20, 2024, 01:08:47 PM »

Hmm, would a system where you can permanently turn an officer into a mercenary at any time work for this?

You can already do this with the skill that grants you 10 officers.  Respec out of it bam your officers are demoted to Mercs.  It's not really a system per se, but the result is that you get mercs that you made yourself.
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Nettle

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Re: Starsector 0.97a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1224 on: February 20, 2024, 01:18:34 PM »

You can already do this with the skill that grants you 10 officers.  Respec out of it bam your officers are demoted to Mercs.  It's not really a system per se, but the result is that you get mercs that you made yourself.

This is peculiar, does it demotes at random, in some specific order, or you get to choose? Never had this interaction.
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Mishrak

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Re: Starsector 0.97a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1225 on: February 20, 2024, 01:51:21 PM »

This also works with Cyber Aug respec, and is probably the better way since it does all of them at once instead of 2 at a time.  Give the officers their +1 elite skill, then respec out of the skill.  You could in effect have cultivated officers for everything this way.  Good luck on the SP though.
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Arghy

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Re: Starsector 0.97a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1226 on: February 20, 2024, 02:48:19 PM »

I crushed the sindrian expedition but i got nothing for it, it just went away--is that it? I tried talking to different people but there wasn't a lot of options beyond sharing my fuel profits. The LC went away after i started techmining which is extremely underwhelming, no negatives or unrest just oh its over now. The pirate one was funny and i hope it repeats because it'd be a shame if they just go away after i defeat 1 armada. I have no idea what the PL wants beyond me joining them so i'm just ignoring them? Very underwhelming but maybe the 600 point event might flesh it out more.

The TT event was by far the best, very engaging and it got me to raid core worlds which i usually never do. The fleets were really fun to fight, and it was very rewarding for all parties.

I'd love for the event bar to reset back to ~250 and every time it reached 600 the unresolved events would trigger again or if they were all resolved just a massive raid by pirates/pathers. I'm creating this beefy system around my colonies it'd be fun to actually see my stations and defensive fleets in action rather than just have them exist and do nothing. It'd begin to address the problem of end game. The LC event desperately needs work because it has a ton of potential, the population is already there and until i do something about it the problem shouldn't go away. I could see replacing the patrol HQ/military base building with a special knights of ludd/pather/independent building to keep the luddic majority happy or building a church to act as some sort of religious themed commerce building.
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Dadada

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Re: Starsector 0.97a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1227 on: February 20, 2024, 06:39:46 PM »

Well, since I paid Kanta I didn't get the pirate crisis I guess, but from what I am reading some huge pirate fleet attacks? Maybe it could be spiced up with 1-2 full or half fleets of faction rebel pirate something fleets mixed in? :D Would probably spice it up a bit.
E: I mean the only moderately dangerous pirate ships I think are: Eradicators and Atlases...
« Last Edit: February 20, 2024, 06:42:05 PM by Dadada »
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Vanshilar

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Re: Starsector 0.97a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1228 on: February 20, 2024, 09:45:15 PM »

A nontrivial part of this conversation seems to be based on the false premise that if the game in principle lets you spend X SP on various things, then it should make X SP readily available regardless of how high X is.

I would add as a corollary the position that "if the way I do things isn't the best/most efficient/optimal/effective/etc. way of doing things, then it's the game at fault and should be changed and has nothing to do with how I approach the game", and its own corollary, "whatever is the best/most efficient/optimal/effective/etc. way of doing things, if it's not what I'm doing, is automatically defined as "unfun"." I've seen various incarnations of those arguments made by multiple posters over the past several years.

My only complaint is how officers drain your SPs like crazy, especially if you get horrible rng and have skills for more elite skills. I only have Cybernetic Augmentation (so 2 elite skills per officer) and at lvl 15 most of them still have only one elite. My fleet isn't maxed, some ships only have a single s-mod, and it's not even a wide fleet. This is why I almost never pick Best of the best, I'd never play long enough to have a whole fleet with 3-smod ships.

I don't like the officer leveling system, and would prefer for the player to just choose any available skill for the officer on level up rather than between a couple of choices. I shamelessly save scum when I level up officers until I get the correct skill.

It's not about perfect play.

Why do I have to play perfectly, with a perfect plan from the outset, that I should never change, in order to not run into SP issues because I conserved them perfectly the entire game?

Make up your mind. You say it's not about perfect play, then claim you need to have perfect play to not run into SP issues.

There are exactly zero players who have perfect play. Right now, no one even knows what perfect play is, much less being able to execute it consistently. Nobody can say "this is the best way to do things" because nobody has exhaustively searched through all possible ways to do things. The most someone can say is "this way seems to be effective" or "method A is more effective than method B at X". That's all anyone can say. Somehow people still manage to have plenty of SP to use.

As long as your fleet can win a fight, any fight, you can gain SP. Every fleet composition -- as long as it can win some fight -- can gain SP. Beyond that, it's a matter of figuring out where your priorities are in terms of gaining SP (i.e. what kind of fleet you want to have), and then in spending the SP and budgeting around it. It's a matter of understanding what you want to get out of the game, understanding how the different systems work, and doing a cost-benefit analysis about which actions are better to take. "Is it really worth it to spend 128 SP to put an improvement on Mining so I can gain an extra 1000 credits a month?" "Is that item the Historian is offering something that I actually need right now, or is it just because I want to be completionist and get another feather in my cap?"

Most colony improvements basically make more credits, which is even easier to get than SP, and which is essentially unlimited and pointless later on (pointless because the things you want to get aren't really acquired via credits). Spending SP to gain more credits is usually a bad trade. If you're burning your SP on colonies, that's on you, not on the game, if you run out of SP.

That's pretty much the solution to the current state of the game.  Either I use some boring meta comp like Onslaughts and Gryphons and Hyperions and turbo farm Ordos, or I cheat in with a mod to fix the problem.

If you think spamming Hyperions against Ordos represents a meta fleet composition, I have good news for you! There are plenty of fleet compositions and playstyles that are more effective than Hyperion spam. Some of them might even be fun.

How many times do we have to repeat the same thing before you see it? The fact is the player can find themselves in a situation with no SP, no Bonus Exp, and no ability to adjust their fleet the way they want to.  It's not about perfect play.  It's about wanting to make a change to your fleet and not having the means to reasonably do so.  Are you just not reading the posts people are writing, or what?

As long as the player's fleet can kill something, the player can gain SP. As long as the player can gain SP, the player can adjust their fleet. The biggest part of adjusting the fleet is in getting the ships and weapons (and hullmods) anyway, the smods are relatively less important. Unless the player runs out of ships for some reason, the player will never be in that situation.

The bigger deals imo are the things that consume SP and give no return bonus exp.

It is not the design intent of SP that everything you spend SP on gives you bonus XP. In fact the design intent was specifically that more "frivolous" or less impactful uses would give you more bonus XP, while more powerful uses would mean less bonus XP given. So in essence, more "frivolous" uses means you're spending the SP to get bonus XP, while more "serious" uses means you're spending the SP to get whatever effect it gives.

I change my fleet halfway through from full on mass LP Brawler spam (including smods) into capitals, and have never had an issue with not having enough SP despite effectively fleshing out two different full fleets.
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Dadada

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Re: Starsector 0.97a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1229 on: February 20, 2024, 09:50:49 PM »

I don't like the officer leveling system, and would prefer for the player to just choose any available skill for the officer on level up rather than between a couple of choices. I shamelessly save scum when I level up officers until I get the correct skill.
Me neither, and I also must say that officer elite skills also feel somewhat of a(n) SP drain, but on the other hand I rarely (have) had problems with a lack of SP, but yeah, it involves somewhat of a grind.

E: Very rough calc for vanilla:
15 Ships with 3 Smods = 45
10 Officers with 2-3 Elite Skills = 20-30
Commerce improvement for 3-6 markets = 6-12
(Maybe some 3-4 colonies get an addition improvement = 12-16)
Contacts, items, XIV Blueprints = let's say 20-30
(rare SP recoveries = 0-5)
Makes for roughly 100-120 and more if I make additional colony improvements or use SP for recoveries.

E2: 60 for lvl 15, a few for the Quests/stories, the rest from large bounties/Ordos, autoresolve pirates, trades... Well. Dunno, I don't think I ever had a big problem with SP in vanilla, yet I actually hate grinding. Ohh, and exploration also gives XP, especially if you survey the whole sector which I tend to do, probably takes longer than the SP grind...
« Last Edit: February 20, 2024, 10:12:50 PM by Dadada »
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