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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Anubis-class Cruiser (12/20/24)

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Author Topic: Skill Tweaks  (Read 24874 times)

Alex

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Re: Skill Tweaks
« Reply #75 on: December 13, 2023, 03:57:56 PM »

While impact mitigation was a little weird with seeing enemies take far less damage from a torp, I think one factor regarding player frustration wasn't considered. The main reason I take it on officers is so they don't get obliterated by a small ai mistep that makes them eat a reaper they could have shielded or dodged, it was a serious frustration reducer in that aspect to keep fights from snowballing due to bad fleet rng.

Ah, fair!

"Reinventing the wheel" was an overexaggeration on my part, maybe I've just been too exposed to skill system blog posts that it triggered some sort of "war flashback". Hey at least we didn't have an economy rework in a long time.

Haha!

About the skill requirements for piloting an Automated ship: I think that whole section of the blog post was a bit confusing, you were writing in hypothetical scenarios so it wasn't clear enough on what you settled on. At least that explains why some of us misunderstood it. So the current implementation is, you need only one capstone skill, and Neural Integrator has reduced OP cost, but the ship you're flying will have +20% DP cost. If that's correct than it ain't so bad in the end I suppose.

Yeah, that's what I get for writing it in a more "thought process" style, but fair enough. And yeah, that's correct.


Hitting the character limit, Alex?

Wishing I'd specced into Combat Endurance!


When Radiant is the player's "true" flagship, having to deploy 2 ships and do the transfer every battle is pretty tedious.

I can see that, though also... sure, it's an issue, but it feels like a very minor one.


Elite SE is required for useful SO builds, and frigate builds as it dramatically extends combat time as ships can stay in combat until 20% CR thanks to minor malfunction risk being made irrelevant.

Ah! Honestly, I think the amount you can extend ship performance beyond peak time is a bit out of hand, so if anything that's more of a reason to make that change. SO is a silly amount of overpowered now, anyway.


I overlooked this but there are some things in here I really like. Damage Control getting the hull restoration effect from Elite CE makes perfect sense. Overload reduction of Field Modulation also makes a lot of sense and fits thematically.

Combat Endurance: I so rarely see my ships get down to low CR that I don't see myself valuing anything that merely mitigates CR decay. I do like the idea of restoring some CR, though.

Fun fact: CE's current elite bonus was originally made for Damage Control. I'm open to ideas for what a good one might be for CE. I mean, I think the current one fits either one thematically (though slightly better for DC), but.

Basically the ideas I'm tossing around are:
DC: gets CE's
Field Modulation: maybe 20% hard flux and -25% overload
CE: ???

OR
Same thing with FM, keeping CE as-is, restoring DC's original bonus and adding some minor one that's more always-useful.

Edit: and, in either case, just reverting IM's elite bonus to its previous value. The 10% hit strength bonus is mostly symbolic anyway.

As an aside, I'm not sure why cutting the maneuverability bonus is necessary for any of these ideas.

I think the line of thought is that there are enough maneuverability bonuses that Auxiliary Thrusters has less of a role.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2023, 04:03:15 PM by Alex »
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Nettle

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Re: Skill Tweaks
« Reply #76 on: December 13, 2023, 04:02:09 PM »

Elite SE is required for useful SO builds, and frigate builds as it dramatically extends combat time as ships can stay in combat until 20% CR thanks to minor malfunction risk being made irrelevant.

Not something I thought about when reading this change, but now that you mentioned it - I like it even more. Toning down SO is a good thing.
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Megas

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Re: Skill Tweaks
« Reply #77 on: December 13, 2023, 04:05:26 PM »

"Hull Restoration"
The problem will always be it is locked behind at best two skills that do not help with combat, which diminishes the combat potential of the entire fleet. It might work due to the decrease in deployment points, which makes it a better support doctrine as it applies to officers as well. The cost of course will be sacrificing the combat tree.
It's good for people that don't like piloting, and bad for those that do.
It also may be slightly broken when paired with Support Doctrine due to the changes to SD.
30% DP reduction I.E. a max of 342 DP if no officers are used, on top of all ships having at least level 4 officers, is pretty insane.
I agree that a big problem with Hull Restoration (and perhaps Derelict Ops for that matter) is it is locked behind two non-combat skills at best.  Ordnance Expert is getting nerfed, so it probably will not be worth one-and-a-half to two skills like it is today (since you have to take a tier 1 non-combat skill to get it).

The DP reduction would be nice, except that the +max CR will disappear, so Hull Restoration is not getting a buff when it will lose the only combat buff it has now (+max CR); in other words, trading one combat buff for another.  It would have been nice if the DP discount was in addition to +max %CR, especially since Ordnance Expert will be nerfed.  The low combat power of Hull Restoration would not be so bad if Industry had more combat skills and/or its campaign power of not caring about casualties was raised to Derelict Ops. level.  Once I cross a threshold of several d-mods (which is easy since all player needs to do is die a lot or recover a bunch of enemy ships), I want to avoid more d-mods on my fleet, with or without Hull Restoration (unless I want to pick up Derelict Ops. too with Industry 8, which I do not want to do given the lack of combat stuff in Industry).


Quote
"Field Modulation boosts shields (and phase cloak), and tacking on a 5% extra damage to shields to the elite effect feels just about right."
It's already a main pick due to hard flux dissipation. You can add the extra damage to shields if you want, but it's not required and is fine as is. Honestly maybe give the extra damage to shields to Energy Weapons Mastery as energy weapons universally struggle against shields.
Just in general try to keep offensive stats to offensive skills, and defensive stats to defensive skills as that makes everything cleaner.
I consider elite Field Modulation for the faster cloak recovery time a must for phase ships.  Cloaking takes too much time, and (normal) phase ships get hammered while decloaking, not to mention it almost defeats the point faster weapon reload time part of Phase Anchor (because cloak wastes too much time cooling off before ship can cloak again).  The faster cloak times is a huge boost.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2023, 04:18:09 PM by Megas »
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eert5rty7u8i9i7u6yrewqdef

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Re: Skill Tweaks
« Reply #78 on: December 13, 2023, 04:13:29 PM »

Elite SE is required for useful SO builds, and frigate builds as it dramatically extends combat time as ships can stay in combat until 20% CR thanks to minor malfunction risk being made irrelevant.
Ah! Honestly, I think the amount you can extend ship performance beyond peak time is a bit out of hand, so if anything that's more of a reason to make that change. SO is a silly amount of overpowered now, anyway.

Elite SE is required for useful SO builds, and frigate builds as it dramatically extends combat time as ships can stay in combat until 20% CR thanks to minor malfunction risk being made irrelevant.

Not something I thought about when reading this change, but now that you mentioned it - I like it even more. Toning down SO is a good thing.

Both of you are missing a couple key points. Frigates need it to remain useful in long battles. Removing it doesn't change how powerful SO is, just how long it is powerful.
Nerfing SO needs to involve weakening its power, not reducing how long it's powerful.
The difference between killing everything the enemy throws at you for ten minutes vs killing everything for seven does not exist if the battle only lasts five minutes.
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Megas

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Re: Skill Tweaks
« Reply #79 on: December 13, 2023, 04:32:37 PM »

It does count for automated ships. For reference, with Hull Restoration and no Crew Training, a Radiant with an Alpha Core gets 40% max CR - just enough to stay out of malfunction range. Assuming Combat Endurance on the core, of course.
Unless you changed the calculations, I only get 35% max CR from Combat Training alone on Alpha Radiant.  Base CR is 20%, Combat Endurance raises it to 35%.  This is why I wrote player needs two CR% booster skills to get it above malfunction level.

Also, is exactly 40% CR enough to keep it above the yellow or not?
EDIT:  Exactly 40% is in malfunction territory.  It has to be at least 41% CR to be in the white.  Alpha Radiant will need two CR booster skills to stay out of malfunctions.  (Similarly, Ziggurat needs to start with at least 91% CR to fight round two in a back-to-back combat without falling apart.)
« Last Edit: December 13, 2023, 04:38:25 PM by Megas »
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Nettle

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Re: Skill Tweaks
« Reply #80 on: December 13, 2023, 04:35:53 PM »

Both of you are missing a couple key points. Frigates need it to remain useful in long battles. Removing it doesn't change how powerful SO is, just how long it is powerful.
Nerfing SO needs to involve weakening its power, not reducing how long it's powerful.
The difference between killing everything the enemy throws at you for ten minutes vs killing everything for seven does not exist if the battle only lasts five minutes.

Frigates have their own leadership skill for this - Wolfpack Tactics. And your statement seems to contradict itself - if it does't matter for how long SO is powerful, why do you need the extra time from Systems Expertise?
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Alex

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Re: Skill Tweaks
« Reply #81 on: December 13, 2023, 04:37:39 PM »

EDIT:  Exactly 40% is in malfunction territory.  It has to be at least 41% CR to be in the white.

It's yellow but that actual malfunction chance will be zero, IIRC.
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Megas

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Re: Skill Tweaks
« Reply #82 on: December 13, 2023, 04:40:40 PM »

EDIT:  Exactly 40% is in malfunction territory.  It has to be at least 41% CR to be in the white.

It's yellow but that actual malfunction chance will be zero, IIRC.
I would not know that just looking at it at a glance.  This is the game giving me false information (by telling me things will break when it will not).
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eert5rty7u8i9i7u6yrewqdef

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Re: Skill Tweaks
« Reply #83 on: December 13, 2023, 05:19:50 PM »

Both of you are missing a couple key points. Frigates need it to remain useful in long battles. Removing it doesn't change how powerful SO is, just how long it is powerful.
Nerfing SO needs to involve weakening its power, not reducing how long it's powerful.
The difference between killing everything the enemy throws at you for ten minutes vs killing everything for seven does not exist if the battle only lasts five minutes.

Frigates have their own leadership skill for this - Wolfpack Tactics. And your statement seems to contradict itself - if it does't matter for how long SO is powerful, why do you need the extra time from Systems Expertise?
If the fleet relies on captained frigates to do more than capture points, all increases to combat time are required. That means both wolfpack tactics and elite SE are required, as well as combat endurance, hardened subsystems, etc. If you don't max out their combat time, they won't be able to keep fighting alongside capitals and cruisers.

As for your question, a well built SO fleet will always be able to beat a maxxed out elite mercenary, elite Remnant, or Omega, regardless of how much time they have to fight as the fight simply ends too quickly. If they lack that 20% CR, then they will struggle with pirate spam fleets. As while everything dies quickly, there's simply too much to kill.
It's a volume problem that turns one fight into several.
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Nettle

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Re: Skill Tweaks
« Reply #84 on: December 13, 2023, 05:42:34 PM »

If the fleet relies on captained frigates to do more than capture points, all increases to combat time are required. That means both wolfpack tactics and elite SE are required, as well as combat endurance, hardened subsystems, etc. If you don't max out their combat time, they won't be able to keep fighting alongside capitals and cruisers.

An officered Tempest with just Combat Endurance and Wolfpack Tactics has PPT equivalent to baseline Hammerhead, every flat PPT bonus on top of that takes this to ridiculous levels due to large % increase WT applies. Using SO cuts this down a lot, but it rightfully should.


As for your question, a well built SO fleet will always be able to beat a maxxed out elite mercenary, elite Remnant, or Omega, regardless of how much time they have to fight as the fight simply ends too quickly. If they lack that 20% CR, then they will struggle with pirate spam fleets. As while everything dies quickly, there's simply too much to kill.
It's a volume problem that turns one fight into several.

Just to be clear, I don't disagree that SO needs to be toned-downn not just through PPT penalties alone, but going with my first point - frigates are, in fact, just fine without the SE PPT buff, much less so if you go with SO, but that's fine in my book.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2023, 05:48:43 PM by Nettle »
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EvilPineapple

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Re: Skill Tweaks
« Reply #85 on: December 13, 2023, 06:47:16 PM »

As someone who doesn't pilot because I don't find the controls comfortable and/or intuitive (changing the Shift key behavior still helped), and enjoy a lot of commanding (despite Onslaughts constantly refusing to maneuver around each other and going after lone frigates marked with "Avoid" capturing points, costing me battles), this update is going to be a bummer for me xD
And since I don't see the game getting controller support (unrealistic to even expect that), I also won't be piloting myself either. It won't be nerfing enough to make commanding less fun, definitely, but I'll miss my slightly more competent officers.

Still a great job with the tweaks, things are going to be more balanced now.

I have played Starsector on a phone using Steam Link, I'm sure you could work something out with Steam Input and a controller, especially one with a touch pad and/or back paddles. Joysticks make good radial menu selectors.
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itBeABruhMoment

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Re: Skill Tweaks
« Reply #86 on: December 13, 2023, 08:56:17 PM »

Even though it would require a dual capstone getting both automated ships and cybernetic augmentation seems really crazy if ai core officers get the same bonus. Also there's the pk mission automated ships to worry about since they don't even require automated ships to use.
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Hiruma Kai

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Re: Skill Tweaks
« Reply #87 on: December 13, 2023, 09:02:39 PM »

I enjoyed the blog, it was an interesting read.  I'll try to take the "there are actual numbers in this post please don't make me regret it" to heart and try not to focus *too* much on the magnitudes of values.

At its current power level, Neural link certainly feels better being a non-capstone skill pick, although it does make me a bit sad, since it made sense as a capstone due to its uniqueness.  However, as a quick tweak, it is a simple and effective solution.  Although I'm going to have to mock up a 72 DP Radiant with 25 more OP and the ability to take BotB at the same time, because that is quite the buff (like an extra 10,000 flux capacity)

Cybernetic Augmentation moving up in its place is starting to feel like the generic boost alternative to BotB now, but more flagship centric.  Certainly it feels worth taking Tech to 5 now if you're not planning on using automated ships.

ECM still feels a tad clunky, but should work I think.  Having the Electronic Warfare skill actually add an extra side benefit to ECM in general seems the right way to go.  Quick captures is an interesting alternative to BotB deployment bonus, and the ability to negate ECM entirely seem good.  40% is doable, and means you don't need to compete with 60+% an Ordo or two can reach.

I do like the decoupling of Hull Restoration's in-combat benefit from Best of the Best, which makes it easier to stand on it's own separate from leadership.  Random thought: Given the +10-15% CR is being removed, and some d-mods these days drop max CR, what if the tier 3 industry skills (Containment Procedures, Makeshift Equipment and Industrial Planning) all gave +5% max CR to all ships in your fleet?  It would mean industry tree could help counteract a few more of the negatives that some d-mod fleets bring to the table, as well as meaning you could in fact have 100% CR without the leadership tree.

EDIT:  Exactly 40% is in malfunction territory.  It has to be at least 41% CR to be in the white.

It's yellow but that actual malfunction chance will be zero, IIRC.

If I understand the Hull Restoration proposed numbers correctly, Hull Restoration drops the DP cost of the pristine Radiant by 10% or 5, which ever is smaller.  5 is smaller than 6.  So, 60->55.  Alpha Core multiplies DP by 4, so 55*4 =220.  120/220 * 100% = 54.54% from Automated ships.  70% base - 100% (automated) +54.54% (automated skill) + 15% (combat endurance) = 39.54%. Is sub-percent CR tracked?  I vaguely remember it was but perhaps I'm wrong.   So unless the code rounds up, or true threshold is more like 39%, it looks to me Hull Restoration + Combat Endurance would put you in malfunction territory with an Alpha Core Radiant since it is below not quite a half a percent below 40%.

Interestingly, a 54 DP pristine Radiant would be above the 40% threshold at 40.55%, but that would require lifting the 5 DP cap.

As for the various elite skills, I think I tend to agree that just more damage bonuses on the defensive focused skills, while it works, is kind of meh.  I do like the idea of moving hull repair back into Damage Control.

In regards to the damage type resistances with the skills, I think the issue with the damage reductions that used to be there was they stacked on top of what they were already good at.  More kinetic resistance on hull and more HE resistance on shields.  The other way, but smaller bonuses might work (i.e. more kinetic resistance for shields and more HE resistance for armor).  Other stats that might make sense for Field Modulation include flux stats, or its manipulation. A +25% vent rate would be a good match for Field Modulation (for both phase and shield ships), but that is already on Polarized Armor.

Impact Mitigation is a bit harder.  I'd almost suggest taking a page out of the Damage Control book which reduces damage by half if above 600 once per second, although that really is anti-torpedo which is what is designed to take down armor.

Crazy idea (not necessarily good) might be something that slows down armor stripping, but maybe not hull damage.  Limit armor cell damage taken to 50% (or 34% or something) of original maximum from a single hit.  So an undamaged Onslaught takes a reaper to its 1750 armor.  4000 HE means 8000 / (8000 + 1750) = 0.82 damage multiplier.  Armor would normally absorb 1750/2 = 875 of the 3,280 reduced damage, leaving 2405 to the hull and 0 armor in the armor cells.  But Elite effect could be that 875 armor is left in the cells in this case, but same hull damage is dealt.  Mostly an anti-torpedo measure meant to prevent complete stripping from a single lucky shot, but probably too niche.
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eert5rty7u8i9i7u6yrewqdef

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Re: Skill Tweaks
« Reply #88 on: December 13, 2023, 09:22:35 PM »

If the fleet relies on captained frigates to do more than capture points, all increases to combat time are required. That means both wolfpack tactics and elite SE are required, as well as combat endurance, hardened subsystems, etc. If you don't max out their combat time, they won't be able to keep fighting alongside capitals and cruisers.

An officered Tempest with just Combat Endurance and Wolfpack Tactics has PPT equivalent to baseline Hammerhead, every flat PPT bonus on top of that takes this to ridiculous levels due to large % increase WT applies. Using SO cuts this down a lot, but it rightfully should.


As for your question, a well built SO fleet will always be able to beat a maxxed out elite mercenary, elite Remnant, or Omega, regardless of how much time they have to fight as the fight simply ends too quickly. If they lack that 20% CR, then they will struggle with pirate spam fleets. As while everything dies quickly, there's simply too much to kill.
It's a volume problem that turns one fight into several.

Just to be clear, I don't disagree that SO needs to be toned-downn not just through PPT penalties alone, but going with my first point - frigates are, in fact, just fine without the SE PPT buff, much less so if you go with SO, but that's fine in my book.

I'm sure your fleet of Tempests and Hammerheads works wonders, but I need the decrease in malfunction chance for my Scarabs when they cover the flanks of my Odysseys.
 
I don't care about the 30 second PPT increase, it's basically worthless. I care about the 50% reduction in malfunction chance, as it shifts the forced retreat window from 40% CR to 20%.
40%-20% CR with hardened subsytems and combat endurance = 20/(.25 - .25 *.25 -.25 *.25)= 20(.25-.125)=20/.125=160 seconds of added combat time.
It also allows for a more liberal window of retreats and redeployments as deploying at 40% CR is largely not an issue.

All frigates need the decrease in malfunctions when they are fighting alongside capitals and cruisers. Certain frigates like the Scarab always need it.
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Nettle

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Re: Skill Tweaks
« Reply #89 on: December 13, 2023, 09:46:52 PM »

I'm sure your fleet of Tempests and Hammerheads works wonders, but I need the decrease in malfunction chance for my Scarabs when they cover the flanks of my Odysseys.

I specifically chose Tempest and Hammerhead for reference because former is powerful and popular high-tech frigate choice with less than ideal base PPT(shared across all high-tech frigates), and the latter is trully a destroyer. They will do fine for approximation sake.

All frigates need the decrease in malfunctions when they are fighting alongside capitals and cruisers. Certain frigates like the Scarab always need it.

There is no other frigate quite like Scarab, 3x PPT drain from Temporal Shell that can't be alleviated with Phase Coil Tuning, or even tapped on and off briefly like phase cloak, just makes it uniquely susceptible to CR degradation. By all means it's an edge case, rather than norm.
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