Fair enough; the changes you've made - now that I've read them - are certainly simpler math. Should work okay.
... now I'm thinking of maybe increasing the max penalty to 15% - that'd both give more room for useful non-EW-skill values, and push off the point of "it's useless now" to 50% for Remnants, which would mean they mostly don't hit it.
The thinking is that increasing it to 15% may be ok because 10% was the max when it was the entire swing in range, but with both sides getting some penalty, a max of 15% would allow for lower swings, still.
...I'd still prefer the suggestion I made back in that thread for helmsmanship, though. The way it works now is annoying; it's been my habit for ages to, on finishing the last local enemy, hit vent to get back to zero flux faster. This is now incorrect - if you've taken helmsmanship, the correct choice is to not hit vent and let your flux dissipate at the normal rate.
And while that habit was formed back in the days before the current helmsmanship elite bonus existed, even in context of the current game, it still goes from being the correct action to an incorrect action when you acquire the skill.
...Plus I really want back the old bonus it had of allowing you to have your shield up without losing the zero flux bonus; that made a big difference in how ships like the Sunder played. And doing that by reducing shield upkeep rather than by allowing zero-flux-boost at non-zero flux levels also means you can't cheese it with silly beam builds.
Honestly? The main reason I didn't give that a try is because it's way more involved; this is all in the context of "things I can do real fast that are unlikely to break". If I start touching the AI, adding new mechanics (such as that shield upkeep reduction), etc, that kinda goes out the window.
I'm not convinced it's the way to go, necessarily, but it IS an interesting idea.
One counter-point, re: what you're saying about a correct action becoming incorrect when you acquire the skill: isn't this *good*, actually? Doesn't that mean that the skill's elite effect succeeds in changing up the mechanics? I mean, there's other arguments you can make, for sure, but I feel like that one isn't necessarily convincing to me.
Despite my dislike of the current helmsmanship bonus, I'd say this is overall an excellent set of changes. And it's nice to see Impact Mitigation elite get a bonus - if even a small one - that will actually matter on a frigate or destroyer. (Extra maneuverability for a frigate is just... okay, I'm sure it's not completely irrelevant, but it certainly feels that way. Destroyers... well, okay, there it matters a bit more than zero, but I'm sure not going to invest one of my limited officer elite skill slots into impact mitigation on a destroyer captain.)
(Depends on the destroyer, I think! I could see an Enforcer needing it, though yeah, I totally see your point.) And, thank you, I'm glad you're (mostly) on board with the changes! Also, thank you again for that feedback thread (and also to everyone that contributed to it); it was very helpful.
sounds good to me, man. I'll be using NI to pilot my favorite modded ship in the game a bit easier, the [REDACTED] Solar from ship+weapon pack \o/
Hah! Not familar, but it sounds like fun
There's a lot to digest here...holy cow. I'll just go down the line, I suppose:
Thank you for the detailed feedback, I appreciate it! I'll go down the line as well, skipping things where I don't really have anything to say one way or another
Ballistic Mastery: In a vacuum, I have zero problems with the slight damage boost and think this is fine but, this makes the disparity between Ballistic Mastery and Energy Weapon Mastery even larger. I don't consider Energy Weapon Mastery to be half as powerful as current Ballistic Mastery and now Ballistic is better (and EWM doesn't change). A lot of your reasoning for ditching some of the "you have to be in a losing position in order to get a benefit" effects I feel I can apply to EWM. You don't see enough of a damage bonus until your flux is high, you only get the damage bonus when you're at knife fighting range, and the Elite effect is merely "ok." EWM scales poorly as ships get bigger, slower, and have more range while Ballistic Mastery is ship agnostic. Now that I think about it, EWM actually functions like an active form of Safety Overrides. It's high-risk/high-reward and you have to put yourself in danger in order to maximize it. Heck, that'd be a curveball - make SO operate like EWM except for all weapons (along with some other stuff). Anyway, the point being, I don't think EWM is anywhere near as universally useful as Ballistic Mastery and more often than not, I only take it for the Elite effect to bring down flux costs. The extra damage up close feels like the window-dressing, not the main effect.
First thing is I definitely agree that EWM is not a universally useful skill, it just isn't, by design. I think with that in mind, the way to judge EWM is on whether it's a strong skill for the sort of build and ship that actually takes advantage of it. I'm certainly open to buffing it etc; what I don't want to do is fundamentally change it to be a universal skill like BM. E.G. it's never going to be as good on a Paragon as BM is on an Onslaught, that's just built into its design.
I seem to remember it being exceedingly overpowered when the bonus was 50% instead of 30%, so it feels like it can't be *that* far off, though?
I also don't think the "losing position" argument applies here - as you note, it's high risk and high reward, which is quite different.
Target Analysis: I actually really like this change. First, it makes killing destroyers harder (yay soft Destroyer buff!) and there's a slight boost in Frigate killing. Great idea.
*thumbs up*
Systems Expertise: I agree the original elite effect really didn't add anything. -10% damage is considerably more impactful. I'm not sure if that's really the best use of a Top-Tier Elite effect. I'm not sure why you're not doubling down on Systems, though, hitting the other side of the coin. "If a ship system has a duration: +25% duration. If a ship system has a flux cost: -25% flux. If a ship system reduces damage: +25% damage reduction." etc. Obviously, you can't hit everything but there are some fairly common themes you could boost.
Yeah - just trying to keep it simpler, it's already a bit of a wall of text.
Combat Endurance: Love it. It becomes a front-end damage mitigation tool that can theoretically save you supplies and repairs, too!
Oh yeah, I guess it can, neat!
Damage Control/Field Modulation/Impact Mitigation: I'm still kind of scratching my head at the logic here. I take these skills to increase survivability but...the Elite effects increase damage. Granted, the extra damage is kind of specialized. I would expect a skill like "Damage Control" to control more damage as its Elite effect, i.e. shoring up another vulnerability. I'm not against the change, it just feels "off." I guess there's only so many ways to reduce damage intuitively.
I get what you're saying. Hopefully all 3 of those having that type of elite bonus makes it feel a little more natural. But, yes - I guess these *could* just reduce their chosen damage even more? I just want to be careful with that sort of thing, too much of it and battles can start to slow down. Plus, having extra damage on the elite effects feels like a bit of flexibility on officers that's good to have.
Missile Spec: No change but it's in a better spot now.
Just to make sure - I did mention that it got changed some time ago (in dev), but didn't mention the numbers. It's 25%/25% now instead of 50%/50% (rate of fire and missile hp).
Gunnery Implants: This is already a very good skill. I'll take extra universal range, but with my EWM rant in mind and this being the Tech Skill Tree, I think the Elite effect should either be limited to Energy Weapons or give a larger bonus toward Energy Weapons (or have some other perk for Energy). Paired with Elite Ballistic Mastery, that's a lot of extra range and shots on target.
Hmm. This is an interesting idea. One thing worth noting is that tier 2 of Technology *needs* a universal combat skill, and GI is it. Its alternative is the quite-situational EWM, and if you're going with a low-tech fleet but want to get up into Tech (which is perfectly reasonable, despite the tree being blue
) then having to take Sensors AND Navigation because the two combat skills don't actually benefit you, would not be that fun.
Cybernetic Augmentation: This makes things very interesting. It's both a fleet skill and a flagship skill that benefits the player more (cutting the Gordian Knot are we?). Considering I typically roll with 4-5 Combat Skills, that's a modest bump for officer'd ships and a decent bump for the Flagship. Really taking it to its extreme, and with all the other Elite changes, I think the flagship can get pretty OP. That's a good thing in my book.
*thumbs up*
Neural Link: I am almost ashamed to say I have barely used it and even with the change, I don't know if I will. I suppose with Cybernetic Augmentation, there could be some possibilities...
With the change, I feel comfortable saying the primary benefit of Neural Link is just "an extra ship with a very good set of skills". And that does synergize very well with Cybernetic Augmentation, doesn't it? Though even without it, it seems quite strong.
Hull Restoration: A very interesting change! You'll be able to deploy a few more pristine ships. It still probably requires too many prerequisites for me to keep late game but I'm at least tempted now.
I'm curious to see how it shakes out! I kind of feel like half of feeling like you need to spec out of Hull Restoration by the endgame is psychological - or, perhaps, just due to not using tactics that take advantage of being able to lose ships. It does feel like it should synergize well with some things, though. Support Doctrine, as mentioned. Automated Ships, since it'll affect the automated points value! But as you say, the prerequisites - a lot of the industry skills are meant for an "it's ok to take losses" style, so if that's not what you're doing, it's a bit of a harder sell for sure.
Overall: A lot of very good and exciting changes. I'm not totally convinced on some of them but if I squint and hop on one leg, I think I see it.
*thumbs up* Thank you! I'm sure it's not perfect, but hopefully a mov in the right direction, overall.
(Target Analysis) Just doing more damage to cruisers and capital ships is frankly good enough for the baseline effect, so: moving the bonus damage to destroyers to the elite portion of the effect, and adding a new 5% bonus damage to frigates for good measure.
Er, I'm confused - so now it boosts damage against everything BUT destroyers, and to get extra damage against destoryers you need the elite? That seems oddly specific...
I read that as the new 5% bonus damage to frigates being part of the elite effect?
Yep, correct!
