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Author Topic: Help satisfy my urge to maximize Pilums  (Read 2263 times)

Goumindong

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Re: Help satisfy my urge to maximize Pilums
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2023, 04:18:03 PM »

So we have two concerns

1) we need a way to kill things/utilize the pilium spam.

This means fighters and/or long range kinetic pressure (like from eagles)

2) we need to maximize piliums per DP.

We may note here that FMR doesn’t actually help us that much because it won’t make piliums recharge faster.

Each medium is worth 6/minute and each large is worth 20/minute.

So a condor is 6/10 DP + 2 fighters.  A manticore is 12/12 (LP is 20/14 but you cannot get rid of the safety overrides). A Griffin is 32/20. And a Pegasus is 80/50 + other stuff.

Best bang for our buck here is the Griffin … absent other considerations which bring the condor and the Pegasus up a bit. To compare; the LP manticore is only 75/50 while the griffin is 80/50 but ++ due to extra missiles. The condor is 30/50. Very bad.

Let’s expand our search. Astral 40/50 + 6 fighters. Atlas II 40/24 (83/50). Conquest 52/40 (65/50)

3) we may have to consider officer density

This is going to advantage every larger ship we have.


Anyway. I think the clear winners here are the Pegasus, the Conquest, and the astral. The conquest isn’t the strongest front line but you can augment it with eagles and fitting piliums in the missiles might mean it’s easier to fit Gauss in the main guns for huge kinetic pressure. The Astral obviously lets you kill things. And can anchor the fleet.

So if we have pegasus, astral, conquest, conquest this is 180 DP. And then we can wing with eagles. This gives us 6 fighter/bombers. 4 Gauss +14 HVD for pressure plus 184 pilium/minute.

If we have spare DP we can maybe trade/add Atlas. I am concerned with Atlas folding but if we used Atlas instead of Eagles we would have +40 pilium/minute per. At 228 DP this(above with no eagles plus 2 atlas 2) this puts us at 264 pilium/minute.

It’s officer efficient. And the atlas can bring Hellbore for long range explosive pressure. Maybe we take the last bit of our DP to add some defensive frigates

Edit: astral+2 Pegasus + 4 atlas 2 = 246 DP  = 6 fighters + 8 HVD for shield pressure(or up to 16 depending on atlas fit) + 360 pilium/minute (not sure how i got 408)

edit 2: Obviously maximum piliums is just Atlas 2's. 10 Atlas 2 == 400 Pilium/minute for 240 DP
« Last Edit: December 11, 2023, 08:18:04 PM by Goumindong »
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MuleDriver

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Re: Help satisfy my urge to maximize Pilums
« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2023, 09:05:21 AM »

.. but do all those Pilums actually do something, other than make the red ships spend flux on PD?
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Candesce

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Re: Help satisfy my urge to maximize Pilums
« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2023, 11:55:01 AM »

.. but do all those Pilums actually do something, other than make the red ships spend flux on PD?
Hmm?

If they actually land hits on a ship's hull, 500 frag and 500 EMP isn't nothing, and with 150 HP per missile and that second-stage sprint they do, they're not terribly vulnerable to PD.

The actual issue is keeping a ship that's lost its shields from retreating out of their range, given they're slow enough on the first stage that most ships can and will. You can counter that with more EMP, of course, but when you could counter it by using a missile with actual armor-cracking power and then killing your target, why would you?

If you really want to use them for some reason, using them to discourage enemy ships from closing on a vessel built around long range firepower that has limited ability to retreat itself might make sense. But you'd want to be fighting something other than [Redacted] - versus them, Squalls and their massive anti-shield damage is just so much more important.
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Daynen

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Re: Help satisfy my urge to maximize Pilums
« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2023, 03:31:31 PM »

.. but do all those Pilums actually do something, other than make the red ships spend flux on PD?

They also make a lot of ships waste PPT dodging them and staying away from your fleet while you pick your targets.  Additionally, pilums are actual objects and can even pop a shot from several weapons if they incidentally intercept.  Fighters can run into them too.  If you keep a steady carpet of new pilums filling the screen, the enemy WILL behave differently to avoid dying to them.
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Nick9

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Re: Help satisfy my urge to maximize Pilums
« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2023, 12:11:18 AM »

We must construct additional pilums.

Ok, this was very funny))
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Worldtraveller

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Re: Help satisfy my urge to maximize Pilums
« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2023, 08:15:07 AM »

I use the new large Pilum mount as a way to get more bombers out. They do a decent job acting as escort for bombers because they distract PD pretty well, and are only a little slower.
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Doctorhealsgood

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Re: Help satisfy my urge to maximize Pilums
« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2023, 01:11:45 PM »

.. but do all those Pilums actually do something, other than make the red ships spend flux on PD?
Hmm?

If they actually land hits on a ship's hull, 500 frag and 500 EMP isn't nothing, and with 150 HP per missile and that second-stage sprint they do, they're not terribly vulnerable to PD.

The actual issue is keeping a ship that's lost its shields from retreating out of their range, given they're slow enough on the first stage that most ships can and will. You can counter that with more EMP, of course, but when you could counter it by using a missile with actual armor-cracking power and then killing your target, why would you?

If you really want to use them for some reason, using them to discourage enemy ships from closing on a vessel built around long range firepower that has limited ability to retreat itself might make sense. But you'd want to be fighting something other than [Redacted] - versus them, Squalls and their massive anti-shield damage is just so much more important.
Well you could use salamanders. But EMP bad i guess.
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Quote from: Doctorhealsgood
Sometimes i feel like my brain has been hit by salamanders not gonna lie.

Rinav

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Re: Help satisfy my urge to maximize Pilums
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2023, 10:15:44 PM »

I too felt the call of flooding the battlefield with regenerating missiles, but the current version of pilums is not well suited to the task.

There is a perfect alternative in the Amazigh's Ship Foundry mod: the bipartisan LRM launcher. Occupies a medium slot, does 40 sustained explosive dps and is functionally a mirv salamander without emp. Really annoying for the AI ships, since they are difficult to shoot down while they circle and do just enough damage to be dangerous. Reloads pretty quickly as well, so you can always have some in the air.

They certainly do not kill things on their own, but will hamper movement much more than pilums and can actually do damage, if a ship is otherwise occupied or overloaded. The AI also really does not like to charge into a wall of missiles, while several are already circling behind it, so they are the perfect support weapon for carriers. They feel really nice, when used in conjunction with fighters, since they help each other out. The missiles draw a lot of pd fire, since they dodge most shots, shielding against both is difficult and the explosive damage aids fighters in getting past armor.
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Void Ganymede

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Re: Help satisfy my urge to maximize Pilums
« Reply #23 on: December 17, 2023, 07:02:05 AM »

2 pages and no correct info?

Void Ganymede's Guide to Lethal Pilum Carpets

Pilums are hyper-specialized. They're basically area denial landmines. They take space and threaten angles without risking a ship.

Launching more takes more space. It doesn't make them more lethal. To increase lethality you need stationary targets.
  • Salamander hits on engines.
  • Claw and Thunder hits on engines.
  • Wolfpack flanker hits on engines.
  • Phase flagship hits on engines.
But - Salamanders are hyper-specialized! To get Salamander hits you need to bypass omni shields and PD.
  • Broadswords to drive up flux with kinetics and spew flares.
  • Ion Beams and HILs to keep omni shields pointed forward.
  • Artillery with EM or explosive loads to do the same.
  • Pilum or Locust spam to confuse PD.
  • Strong fighters/interceptors to defang enemy carriers.
So you see, Pilums are a combined arms weapon. They take some setup for the payoff. You need to dedicate a chunk of your fleet's OP to things that synergize with them to make them shine.

Fortunately, they (1) can be run from a "backline" that reinforces your frontline (2) provide a ton of value by threatening enemy AI even before they start dealing damage. Running Salamanders in your frontline's smalls makes those ships weaker but that's compensated for by a backline that's directly engaged in combat, and by far less flanking and pursuit by enemies.

Herons Condors don't bring much Pilum regen per DP, but with Fast Missile Racks maximize carpet deployment speed and bring Broadswords. Gryphons maximize Pilum regen *and* bring Salamanders, but have to act as more of a midline ship to get the Salamanders in range. An Ion Beam Vigilance is kind of questionable but has ridiculous value for carpet deployment. Herons aren't great at spamming Pilums but can form ridiculous interlocking beam grids and with systems expertise/elite PD officers give peak fighter wing performance.

In short Pilums are great in slow carrier and artillery fleets that can secure hits with EMP and Salamanders. They're okay in fast wolfpack fleets that can secure hits with EMP and flanks. They're bad by themselves unless you're using them to pressure phase ships, then they're funny.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2023, 04:23:25 PM by Void Ganymede »
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Doctorhealsgood

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Re: Help satisfy my urge to maximize Pilums
« Reply #24 on: December 18, 2023, 07:06:44 AM »

Herons don't have fast missile racks...
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Quote from: Doctorhealsgood
Sometimes i feel like my brain has been hit by salamanders not gonna lie.

Void Ganymede

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Re: Help satisfy my urge to maximize Pilums
« Reply #25 on: December 20, 2023, 04:22:55 PM »

derp
Condors
Basically the same thing.
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