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[avnplja]

Hephausteus is my favorite gun aesthetically. I love the look and the sound it makes. The problem is I can see no reason to ever use it. Hellbore is just better. I get that Hephausteus shoots faster, so it is better against smaller ships, but the thing is no small ship ever have armour. So I end up using my small slots (dominator, onslaught etc.) to deal with small ships. I want to use my favourite gun. What are some ships and builds that can use Hephaestys assault cannon?

[Nimiety]

I like the baseline conquest and it uses two heph and two mark IX, one on each side. Rips stuff up real good. The reapers on the front are the capital/heavy cruiser busters, the heph keeps their shields up for the IX and swats anything smaller.

[avnplja]

I like the baseline conquest and it uses two heph and two mark IX, one on each side. Rips stuff up real good. The reapers on the front are the capital/heavy cruiser busters, the heph keeps their shields up for the IX and swats anything smaller.

Have to try that out. When I see machine gun I just think low tech . Last time I played conquest, I just slapped mjolnirs on it.

[Doctorhealsgood]

Hephausteus is my favorite gun aesthetically. I love the look and the sound it makes. The problem is I can see no reason to ever use it. Hellbore is just better. I get that Hephausteus shoots faster, so it is better against smaller ships, but the thing is no small ship ever have armour. So I end up using my small slots (dominator, onslaught etc.) to deal with small ships. I want to use my favourite gun. What are some ships and builds that can use Hephaestys assault cannon?

Invictus might to very nicely with it.

[WENth100]

On the Invictus the HAG can perform rather well, LIDAR array’s range boost and rate of fire boost allows them to dis out an impressive amount of damage. So it’s a good idea to combine 2 of them with a pair of Mark IX Autocannons.

[Cryovolcanic]

Based what I've read on the forums--

The Heph is quite underrated and fits well into several setups. There's some discussion here:

https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=28072.0

Everyone thinks it's just a bad version of the Hellbore but its superior accuracy makes a big difference when compared side by side.

[Worldtraveller]

I have a mix of Manticores in my fleet that I use primarily as escorts. I've found the the HAG to be good when the facing fleets of mostly frigates and destroyers, or lots of small craft. For all around, though, I prefer the much undervalued Mjolnir.

The Hellbore is only really good against slower ships, so I prefer that (with Mark IXs) on the front of my Invictus for station busting. One invictus can solo pretty much any station except maybe a full HiTech starfortress. "D

[Nettle]

The thing about high fire rate and low damage per shot HE weapons is that their performance steadily decreases as you approach higher armor values, due to how armor reduction works. The more damage you deal in a single instance the more armor you will strip. So, realistically, you are only going to use weapons like LAG, ACG, HAG to punch down on moderately armored targets, but it doesn't help that they are usually more expensive than their higher damage per shot counterparts.
As for your actual question - the use cases for HAG, I think retribution just might pull it off. Its a reasonably fast battlecruiser, it can use 2 out of 3 large ballistics for budget kinetics, and still have one slot left to run HAG and punch down on slower low-tech and midline cruisers.

[Grievous69]

Retribution might as well then get Devastators, no point using a more expensive weapon which has far forse flux efficiency, and the biggest downside of Devastators is fixed since Retribution can't get ITU. You'll be fighting at knife range either way.

If I was forced to use HAG, I'd probably pick the Conquest. It is the best candidate for it even though I prefer other setups.

[Megas]

Everyone thinks it's just a bad version of the Hellbore but its superior accuracy makes a big difference when compared side by side.

HAG only recently got its current accuracy.  It used to be badly inaccurate similar to Devastator or autocannons.  Now, it is more similar to a low-budget Mjolnir.

Devastator is good as a standard assault weapon if player can get all of the recoil reduction (Gunnery Implants and Armored Turreted Mounts) and get Point Defense for +200 range, then a lot of shots will explode close to HAG range, and the spread is not too wide.  But getting everything for that may be too much of an opportunity cost.

[Thaago]

HAGs do very well on Onslaughts when there is something else to crack the really heavy armor - usually some kind of missile or torpedo like proximity charges. The small slots can mount efficient anti-shield weapons and can even range match (or get close) to the HAGs. I think most of the onslaught builds that the top ordo farmers are using use this setup?

HAGs are worse armor crackers than Hellbores when it comes to heavy armor, but they are very good at dealing with either lighter armor (cruiser grade) or chewing through the hull of tough ships. They are more reliable vs smaller targets (where hellbores have questionable utility) and also harder to shield flicker against. And they aren't useless vs heavy armor either, just worse.

I've never had good success using Devastators as anti-armor/hull weapons. They tend to be firing at fighters/missiles instead of a primary target, waste a lot of their flux, and then don't do much damage. Maybe this is experience from past versions - there was a fix to their proximity fuses recently, right?

[Freefall357]

The HAG vs the Hellbore...hmmm..

The hellbore has special armor-removal mechanics and is functionally a torpedo. It takes advantage of an opening to do damage.
The HAG is constant pressure with anti-armor focus. It dictates the defensive stance of your opponent.

What that means is if you are unloading on a ship with a HAG, it wants to keep it's shield up for the duration of the barrage because it will be punished if it doesn't. This shifts the focus much more heavily into flux management over pure tanking.  It also allows you to force a choice between two bad decisions. The enemy is receiving a rain of HAG pressure then a volley of sabots come in. The AA guns will spike flux as they shoot the sabots and a sabot hit on the shields is an overload. Does he drop his shield and eat the EMP of the sabot then bring it back up to stop continued HAG pressure? Does he keep the shield up and fall back, hoping for AA to reduce sabots to something he can take on the shield and prep for an overload retreat? What about a Squall barrage backed by HAG? Take enhanced shield damage and lose the flux war, or take HAG to the armor? Without HAG pressure, anti-shield weapons are countered by not putting your shield up. The Hellbore cant do that. The AI in particular will blink its shield for half a second to just catch the Hellbore shot then turn it off again. HAGs on a flux efficient build are great lineholders and will push back very strong ships until you are ready to deal with them.
A couple decent paring of weapons are Sabots for the "two bad choices" shield-slap, and Breach SRMs. Breach SRMs are super tanky high ammo-count missiles that the enemy wants to take on the shields if you are trying to flux them out with shield pressure, and have the side benefit of special armor-stripping for more HAG damage if they drop, or dont have, shields for any reason.
A side benefit of the rapid fire is the incidental hits against missiles and strikecraft (and frigates) that get between you and your target giving you flux-free "point defense".

The hellbore can make an opening hurt badly. Any time you would sling a reaper you could instead use your infinite hellbore ammo to do similar damage. While the HAG can arguably be used in these situations, it is less focused and doesnt have extra armor-shredding.  Removing armor is niche but it has it's uses. Fragmentation damage tends to be very high DPS, but does 25% damage against any defense. If you can make an opening for them with a Hellbore, you can do incredible DPS to a large ship/station. Reduced armor also simply takes more damage from any other things you have hitting it. Strikecraft (fighters/bombers) like to use Fragmentation weapons or light anti-armor weapons. If you have carrier support, or are a carrier with a hellbore, you can remove the armor to make the cheaper strike craft far more effective.

My $0.02

[Lawrence Master-blaster]

I leave for what felt like a year and people are still repeating the same things...

As per Alex's own quick-and-dirty test back in the day, HAG completely strips armor off of basic sim Onslaught only 10-20% slower than the Hellbore. After that it will pull ahead in TTK because of higher DPS against hull. It also has much faster projectile/fires much faster/rotates much faster(all make it much more accurate against smaller targets which Hellbore is terrible against), pressures shields better, and almost doubles against PD as far as enemy fighters are concerned.

HAG is almost a straight upgrade to the Hellbore - it was so even before the accuracy buff - which is why it has higher OP and flux cost. The only reason to use Hellbore is when you can't afford the HAG.

The actual problem with HAG is that there is no real time in the game to use it. In early/mid game your ships don't have OP/flux for HAG so you pick Hellbore if you want a hard-hitting anti-armor weapon. In late game your primary enemy becomes the Remnant which have strong shield tank, so there's little reason to have large explosive weapons in the first place. Which means that at the time you'd want to switch from Hellbores to HAG, you don't really want either anymore. Unless your flagship is the Onslaught, then HAG remains your best pick for the middle large slot, but even that is mostly because you can't afford a Mjolnir flux-wise.

[TheLaughingDead]

The hellbore has special armor-removal mechanics and is functionally a torpedo. It takes advantage of an opening to do damage.
The HAG is constant pressure with anti-armor focus. It dictates the defensive stance of your opponent.

I don't think the Hellbore has any special armour-removal mechanics, it just has high hit strength, which determines damage to armour. Nothing crazy going on there!

What that means is if you are unloading on a ship with a HAG, it wants to keep it's shield up for the duration of the barrage because it will be punished if it doesn't. This shifts the focus much more heavily into flux management over pure tanking.  It also allows you to force a choice between two bad decisions...
...HAGs on a flux efficient build are great lineholders and will push back very strong ships until you are ready to deal with them.

I agree on the HAG keeping enemy shields up (it is a lot like the High Intensity Laser in that regard). Not sure that Sabots make for a great example, because as you mention, the enemy can drop their shields and eat the (since update, relatively minor) EMP damage and a couple HAG rounds. That, or employ point defense, which is really quite cheap flux-wise. The Squall example is better, because both the HAG and the Squall are able to fire for extended periods, so the enemy can't flicker the shield on or off for burst damage.
Not sure I agree that HAGs are "great lineholders". Ships are great lineholders. HAGs are just guns. Flux-heavy guns, at that. There are few ships that have the flux to even use an HAG effectively, let alone use it with other kinetic weapons at the same time! Without those kinetic weapons, the HAG is really quite weak against even light cruiser shields, so they don't really drive up flux fast enough on their own to push enemy ships back.

A couple decent paring of weapons are Sabots for the "two bad choices" shield-slap, and Breach SRMs. Breach SRMs are super tanky high ammo-count missiles that the enemy wants to take on the shields if you are trying to flux them out with shield pressure, and have the side benefit of special armor-stripping for more HAG damage if they drop, or dont have, shields for any reason.
A side benefit of the rapid fire is the incidental hits against missiles and strikecraft (and frigates) that get between you and your target giving you flux-free "point defense".

Breaches are nice, but if you have an HAG then you probably want to focus more on other missiles like Sabots or Reapers, Proximity Charge Launchers, Atropos, something that just does a lot of damage, to help with shields. The HAG should be all you need

The hellbore can make an opening hurt badly. Any time you would sling a reaper you could instead use your infinite hellbore ammo to do similar damage. While the HAG can arguably be used in these situations, it is less focused and doesnt have extra armor-shredding.  Removing armor is niche but it has it's uses. Fragmentation damage tends to be very high DPS, but does 25% damage against any defense. If you can make an opening for them with a Hellbore, you can do incredible DPS to a large ship/station. Reduced armor also simply takes more damage from any other things you have hitting it. Strikecraft (fighters/bombers) like to use Fragmentation weapons or light anti-armor weapons. If you have carrier support, or are a carrier with a hellbore, you can remove the armor to make the cheaper strike craft far more effective.

Hmm, not sure I understand your point here? Fragmentation damage will be just as effective whether the armour was stripped by Hellbore or HAG? I feel like, aside from stations and lumbering heavy-armour ships in particular, an HAG would result in more damage simply because of the sheer hull DPS the HAG boasts.

[Nettle]

I leave for what felt like a year and people are still repeating the same things...

As per Alex's own quick-and-dirty test back in the day, HAG completely strips armor off of basic sim Onslaught only 10-20% slower than the Hellbore. After that it will pull ahead in TTK because of higher DPS against hull. It also has much faster projectile/fires much faster/rotates much faster(all make it much more accurate against smaller targets which Hellbore is terrible against), pressures shields better, and almost doubles against PD as far as enemy fighters are concerned.

Aaaahhh, when the SIM Onslaught bullying will stop? Either way, this statement is fine in a vacuum, but you almost never see unofficered Onslaughts in game, and 20% can be a huge difference when the window between you overfluxing enemy to start dealing HE and them successfully backpedaling all the way back into safety is pretty small, not to mention that HAG demands almost twice the flux and you generally don't get the extremely flux hungry large HE ballistic to hunt down some frigates.

Hmm, not sure I understand your point here? Fragmentation damage will be just as effective whether the armour was stripped by Hellbore or HAG? I feel like, aside from stations and lumbering heavy-armour ships in particular, an HAG would result in more damage simply because of the sheer hull DPS the HAG boasts.

There is such thing as "residual armor" which is a fancy way of saying that even completely destroyed armor cells will still provide 5% of your base maximum armor for the sake of damage calculations. So HE weapons will always perform just a little better than frag or kinetics even when firing at supposedly exposed hulls.