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[Thaago]

Interesting! It sounds like I haven't given the dev a fair shot with all the skills boosting its range and cutting its recoil.

[Grievous69]

I'm telling you all it's amazing on Retribution which fights in melee range basically.

[Daynen]

The thing about high hit strength is that it's better against HIGH armor because it peels through that high damage reduction to reduce more armor which reduces damage reduction sooner.  Once you've stripped the armor though, higher ROF weapons are better for hammering home the damage without giving your opponent windows to turn, fire, flicker shields or retreat.  DPS calculations are all well and good, but don't forget your enemy's not going to just sit still and stuck his exposed hull out if he can help it.

Not all ships will find it practical but If I've got the OP and flux to support it, I'll take a Heph over a hellbore any day.

[Demetrious]

So I got curious and sat down to try and quantify the DPS of Hellbore vs. HAG against various armored targets. I can't even begin to account for the DR of the armor lowering over time - much less the way armor cells contribute armor strength and all that - but I did throw together a very basic spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mykpPB3GPNcwBJg3wjHwzWJuPi-58ohSdX8yLV2e0r0/edit?usp=sharing

The tl;dr is that against a stock Onslaught's armor (1,750) Hellbore is significantly better at removing the armor, but once down to residual armor DR on stripped hull (5% of original armor value) the HAG is much better at chewing through the hull... which is necessary to secure the kill, after all.

I tried testing Hellbore vs. HAG in the simulator, but it's hard to really get a good test. For instance, using a Venture as target practice, the HAG actually had a quicker time to kill but only because it's sheer DPS significantly helps beat down the shield when the enemy manages to raise it again, getting back to hammering the armor quicker. Lots of variables like that. Is there any way to do a more controlled test?

[Grievous69]

I always say to such tests that they're unfair, you're using one gun that has wildly more DPS but also uses much more flux, and the other gun both uses much less flux as OP. No wonder the conclusion will be "this things kills quicker". It's like testing the Assault Chaingun versus a Heavy Mauler.

[Nettle]

I always say to such tests that they're unfair, you're using one gun that has wildly more DPS but also uses much more flux, and the other gun both uses much less flux as OP.

Why? They didn't even claim anything that wasn't already known. Of course HAG chews through armor stripped Onslaughts faster, it should do that at the very least.

[Grievous69]

Read my post again, the very thing your wrote is exactly why I responded. You can't put numerical values on time to kill and damage done when the weapons are totally different. Show me how HAG is truly better by matching the Hellbore's stats to it. So that means exact DPS and flux values. It's not even a discussion where one party disregards every single disadvantage of one weapon and consistently points out the single disadvantage of the other weapon.

[Nettle]

They claimed that Hellbore works through Onslaught base armor faster, but HAG takes less time to kill once said armor is already mostly/completely stripped, which is how both guns supposed to work. Their conclusion that HAG is therefore the better of the two options is questionable, and requires a lot more nuanced analysis, but at least the main purpose of both weapons is underlined correctly.

[Demetrious]

I always say to such tests that they're unfair, you're using one gun that has wildly more DPS but also uses much more flux, and the other gun both uses much less flux as OP. No wonder the conclusion will be "this things kills quicker". It's like testing the Assault Chaingun versus a Heavy Mauler.

Determining effective DPS versus any one ship's armor is the first step in making meaningful comparisons in terms of flux expenditure required to kill X. It's definitely higher for the HAG. I'm curious as to what I get for that expenditure, and where the break-even point lies in terms of armor strength/hull strength. Maybe I should bring torpedoes instead of sabots when using HAG, I'd love to know!

[Thaago]

That's what I do - torpedoes or proximity charge launchers for "cracking" the heavy armor, then lots of kinetics in the small and medium mounts.

[FooF]

I always say to such tests that they're unfair, you're using one gun that has wildly more DPS but also uses much more flux, and the other gun both uses much less flux as OP. No wonder the conclusion will be "this things kills quicker". It's like testing the Assault Chaingun versus a Heavy Mauler.

Determining effective DPS versus any one ship's armor is the first step in making meaningful comparisons in terms of flux expenditure required to kill X. It's definitely higher for the HAG. I'm curious as to what I get for that expenditure, and where the break-even point lies in terms of armor strength/hull strength. Maybe I should bring torpedoes instead of sabots when using HAG, I'd love to know!

Technically speaking, the Hellbore is always going to be a pretty efficient weapon due to how armor mechanics work. Outside of the Invictus, only a few up-armored Onslaughts/Legions can take more than 3 Hellbore shots on one armor cell without being crushed (without skills). That means that 2250 flux can strip virtually any ship in the game. Once you get through armor, that 750 damage round is going to have high hit strength against the meager 5% residual armor. At best, you'll mitigate maybe 10% of that hit, more likely in the lower 5-6% if you're a Cruiser. So, just from an efficiency perspective, the Hellbore is going to be more so than any HE weapon that has a 1:1 damage/flux ratio because of its huge damage/shot. The HAG is 1:1 so by virtue of it having a much, much lower damage/shot, regular armor and residual armor will mitigate its damage considerably more.

But, that doesn't tell the whole story. The Hellbore has a massive accuracy issue and can be shield flickered pretty easily. HAG doesn't have those issues and can keep steady HE pressure on everything from Capitals to Frigates. You will pay more flux for the same damage vs. the Hellbore but if the Hellbore misses (-100% efficiency) or hits a shield (50% efficiency), you're out both flux and time. Plus, the raw DPS of the HAG is nearly twice as high. Getting through hull is arguably the more important consideration and raw DPS plays a bigger role in that.

They're just two different weapons on opposite sides of the HE spectrum. Personally, I think the HAG is a fine weapon, albeit a little less general-purpose than the Mk. IX due to the lower flux cost. It's just not very flashy.

Edit: Just did some brief testing and I guess I was mistaken about the damage calculation vs. residual armor. When testing the Hellbore against a 900 armor sim Enforcer, it was doing around 725 damage per shot against "naked" hull. That didn't make sense to me until I realized the armor calculation does factor in the HE multiplier, but only in the second half of the equation. So it's 750*(1500/(1500+45)) which works out to be 728 damage. So, back to efficiency, that's 97% efficient against Cruiser-grade armor. The HAG can only boast 84% efficiency against the same hull. It also means Kinetics get their damage halved for the armor portion of the calculation. A Mk. IX did ~540 damage from 4 rounds, which tracks with the Kinetic portion of the damage being reduced to 68% efficiency by a paltry 45 residual armor.

[Rusty Edge]

 HAG is amazing on Retribution. Retribution can handle the heavy flux, and the time-to-kill is very short on medium and high tech armor levels and hulls. As someone who usually sides with Ludd, I fight a lot of mid and high tech ships.

 Maximizing flux efficiency is important for line ships, brawlers and shield tankers. But a good flanker can sacrifice efficiency for shear firepower.

 HAG is not better in every case, maybe not in most cases. But it has it's use on ships with good mobility and flux. And it's a decent choice on shield shunt builds.