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[eert5rty7u8i9i7u6yrewqdef]

I've had enough.
The Persean League and Luddic Path are getting saturation bombed.

While I'm here. @Alex mining + refining + a domain artifact should not cause an active Luddic Path cell and an increase to Hostile Activity. It also shouldn't cause LP armadas to pop into existence from nowhere in my system the moment it happens.
Also, "expeditions" should never be sent from planets with story protections, or those protections need to be removed and replaced with a warning. At this point it is a large portion of the military planets in the game. Furthermore, same faction fleets and stations should never aid expeditions. As it currently stands if you get jumped by an expedition that you forgot about, members of the expedition faction will aid them if in proximity.
Before anyone suggests otherwise, the expeditions are supposed to be "rogue actors", if their faction supports their attack against you, they are no longer "rogue actors", and it is now an act of open war.

[Megas]

I've had enough.

Me too.  I am at the point where I do not care if blowing up core worlds breaks the story, I want the plot armor gone.  Or perhaps, let sat bombing break plot armor.  I guess limited plot armor would be okay to protect core worlds incapable of defending themselves from pirates and pathers.  But if player wants to bomb a planet off the map, it should not be stopped by magical plot armor.

As it currently stands if you get jumped by an expedition that you forgot about, members of the expedition faction will aid them if in proximity.
Before anyone suggests otherwise, the expeditions are supposed to be "rogue actors", if their faction supports their attack against you, they are no longer "rogue actors", and it is now an act of open war.

Yes.  it would probably ruin rep, but Starsector needs better faction relations.

Also, I am still annoyed how Indepedents get angry over all sat bombs.  In effect, they side with the enemy and poke their nose where it does not belong, and they become targets of extermination by joining forces with the enemy.  They should only react to sat bombs when they get hit, not when a major faction who had it coming after pushing another faction too far gets hit.

And there should be alternatives to making the enemy stop beyond sat bombing them off the map or becoming a vassal paying tribute to them.  Given the choice, sat bombing them off the map is preferable to paying tribute.

And with the hint of major factions eager to sat bomb the player's planets with major factions getting included in Hostile Activities (beyond mere pirates and pathers) later, sat bombing should be treated no worse than tac bombing, or at least not auto-hostile.


In the meantime, got to do the quests to remove plot protection.  For now, this is the real reward for doing the Church questlines, which was removing plot armor from the Church's homeworld (Gilead).  I do not want to do much with the Church (they have no rewards I am interested in), but I have to if I want that plot armor gone.  I do not want to be forced to do quests just to be able to decivilize nosy Ludds (or other majors) off the map who refuse to leave my worlds alone.

[Princess of Evil]

Sat bombing to begin with is just seen as a *** thing because it is. You're literally dropping nuclear-level explosives on heads of civilians.

[Megas]

Sat bombing to begin with is just seen as a *** thing because it is. You're literally dropping nuclear-level explosives on heads of civilians.

Which does not bother them when they do it.  Currently, not a problem since they seem to sat bomb only on squatters (player colonizing in their territory).  But one topic showed a teaser pic with the Diktat eager to sat bomb the player's fuel planet at max Hostile Activities.  Currently, only pirates and pathers use HA, but it looks like majors are joining in HA next release.

I do not buy the excuse of majors vs upstart after the so-called upstart has grown to superpower status and can wipe all of them off the map.

[breezeprime]

I would definitely agree that story protection at the barest minimum needs to be explained in vanilla (it is in nex) it's extremely frustrating to dominate a planet into what should decivilize them, wait for a long time, and nothing happens. So I continued to build up even more negative stability and wait again. Nothing happens, no explanation, it just looks like a bug. so @eert5rty7u8i9i7u6yrewqdef install nex, even if the game is functioning as intending in your case (it was in mine) installing nex fixes unintended, unexplained behavior that decreases the quality of your game, you aren't installing a mod at this point, you are installing a patch.

[eert5rty7u8i9i7u6yrewqdef]

Sat bombing to begin with is just seen as a *** thing because it is. You're literally dropping nuclear-level explosives on heads of civilians.

Rebel or die. If a governing body hires terrorists, who then mess up a simple raiding run attacking the head of the opposing state, and the main forces of the governing body assist the terrorist resulting in a full blown war, it is on the citizenry to step in and stop their government. Lore wise, if they don't it will clearly escalate until sat bombing, as their government is resorting to terrorism over tiny market shares, and when I say tiny I mean less than 10%.
There also is no alternative in Vanilla.

I would definitely agree that story protection at the barest minimum needs to be explained in vanilla (it is in nex) it's extremely frustrating to dominate a planet into what should decivilize them, wait for a long time, and nothing happens. So I continued to build up even more negative stability and wait again. Nothing happens, no explanation, it just looks like a bug. so @eert5rty7u8i9i7u6yrewqdef install nex, even if the game is functioning as intending in your case (it was in mine) installing nex fixes unintended, unexplained behavior that decreases the quality of your game, you aren't installing a mod at this point, you are installing a patch.

I've played nex a lot in the past. I may reinstall as I'm reaching that point of annoyance, but nex comes with its own problems. The combination of bickering with the core worlds when they try to expand into a perfect system is very annoying. As I always have to check the system when I notice them trying to expand, or I have to spend multiple IRL hours conquering the system and defending it against the faction I stole from and their allies.
Likewise the Sindrian Diktat almost always gets killed by the Hegemony, which means I either have to baby sit the SD, or fight a super powered Heg late game as it always comes to conflict with nex due to the random rep increase and decrease. Furthermore, the Heg may flat out become the new Domain if the SD falls, as if the SD falls the Heg is going after the Persean Legue, and the PL can't handle a super powered Heg. Which of course is insane to deal with. I have done it in the past, it is not worth the time.
It doesn't always go this way due to how faction relations work with nex, but it's like 85% of the time.

Sat bombing to begin with is just seen as a *** thing because it is. You're literally dropping nuclear-level explosives on heads of civilians.

Which does not bother them when they do it.  Currently, not a problem since they seem to sat bomb only on squatters (player colonizing in their territory).  But one topic showed a teaser pic with the Diktat eager to sat bomb the player's fuel planet at max Hostile Activities.  Currently, only pirates and pathers use HA, but it looks like majors are joining in HA next release.

I do not buy the excuse of majors vs upstart after the so-called upstart has grown to superpower status and can wipe all of them off the map.

I hope not. Lore wise the SD is keeping the two main powers balanced in the sector, which can be seen when playing Nex. If the SD falls the Heg will ultimately beat the Persean Legue. If the SD is still alive, the PL and Heg stalemate.
If you are correct and it goes through, most players will be safe rather than sorry and genocide the SD in vanilla, and invade and transfer the SD worlds to independent polities in nex. While this won't be an issue in vanilla, it will be an issue for nex players for the stated reasons above, i.e. a super powered Heg.

[Tranquility]

If you have the Console Commands mod installed, you can put this into the console to remove any and all story-critical flags from all markets in-game. It should work even when more story-critical missions get added, so it's a bit future-proof in that regard. Enjoy your disproportionate war-criming against these poor, struggling factions!

Copy & Paste in Console to remove story-critical protection from all markets

Code

RunCode 
for (MarketAPI market : Global.getSector().getEconomy().getMarketsCopy()) {
    for (Object o : market.getMemoryWithoutUpdate().getKeys().toArray()) {
        String memFlag = (String) o;
        if (memFlag.startsWith(MemFlags.STORY_CRITICAL)) {
            market.getMemoryWithoutUpdate().unset(memFlag);
            Console.showMessage("Removed " + memFlag + " from " + market.getName());
        }
    }
}

[close]

Personally, though, I see no point in sat-bombing at all, aside from role-playing reasons, as all it does is reduce your ability to profit from exports and lose a lot of accessibility from being hostile with some of the biggest markets. Sure, the expeditions are annoying, but I never really notice them becoming a problem at all, especially if you've already built up Orbital Stations and Patrols to counter both them and Hostile Activity. I don't even think they appear that often either; in my multi-decade playthroughs, I've only seen like about 1-2 expeditions every 3-5 cycles, which is basically nothing when most of them are pushovers that can be wiped with a competent fleet or a station with support. Worst case scenario, they can be brought off with either story-points (which, for me, is basically free, as I usually horde them even when I should be spending them on S-Mods, and Remnant Ordos provide a reliable source of XP for more story points) or reputation (which can easily be gained back with either 4 exploration missions or plenty of AI cores). Hegemony AI inspections are relative push-overs too with story-points and, even without them, can be silently taken down with no transponder for a minor reputation hit (it's very amusing when your own faction fleets join you against them and, somehow, the Hegemony still doesn't know exactly who killed off their AI inspectors).

[eert5rty7u8i9i7u6yrewqdef]

If you have the Console Commands mod installed, you can put this into the console to remove any and all story-critical flags from all markets in-game. It should work even when more story-critical missions get added, so it's a bit future-proof in that regard. Enjoy your disproportionate war-criming against these poor, struggling factions!

Copy & Paste in Console to remove story-critical protection from all markets

Code

RunCode 
for (MarketAPI market : Global.getSector().getEconomy().getMarketsCopy()) {
    for (Object o : market.getMemoryWithoutUpdate().getKeys().toArray()) {
        String memFlag = (String) o;
        if (memFlag.startsWith(MemFlags.STORY_CRITICAL)) {
            market.getMemoryWithoutUpdate().unset(memFlag);
            Console.showMessage("Removed " + memFlag + " from " + market.getName());
        }
    }
}

[close]

Personally, though, I see no point in sat-bombing at all, aside from role-playing reasons, as all it does is reduce your ability to profit from exports and lose a lot of accessibility from being hostile with some of the biggest markets. Sure, the expeditions are annoying, but I never really notice them becoming a problem at all, especially if you've already built up Orbital Stations and Patrols to counter both them and Hostile Activity. I don't even think they appear that often either; in my multi-decade playthroughs, I've only seen like about 1-2 expeditions every 3-5 cycles, which is basically nothing when most of them are pushovers that can be wiped with a competent fleet or a station with support. Worst case scenario, they can be brought off with either story-points (which, for me, is basically free, as I usually horde them even when I should be spending them on S-Mods, and Remnant Ordos provide a reliable source of XP for more story points) or reputation (which can easily be gained back with either 4 exploration missions or plenty of AI cores). Hegemony AI inspections are relative push-overs too with story-points and, even without them, can be silently taken down with no transponder for a minor reputation hit (it's very amusing when your own faction fleets join you against them and, somehow, the Hegemony still doesn't know exactly who killed off their AI inspectors).

Thank you, that solution is a lot closer to ideal. As for the reason for sat bombing, 1 high command is not enough to stop the later and larger expeditions. In order to guarantee expeditions are stopped you typically need at least two with a Cryoarithmetic Engine on a hot world plus at least a battle station on all worlds they might target, and it's still iffy. I have become incredibly paranoid over the years after having expeditions succeed even though I was told their space forces were outmatched.
The PL is the biggest offender, and removing their military planets removes their expeditions. Which only leaves the SD and TT expeditions, which are infrequent enough, and weak enough to typically not be a problem. It's also for role play reasons.

[Megas]

For me, I am willing to sacrifice income by wiping enemies off the map if it means removing babysitting annoyances (by defending my colonies from raids) permanently.

Also, if I want to attempt to conquer the entire sector (and install alphas), I need to destroy the core worlds before I can take their planets and build my colonies over their ashes.  The recent topic of someone actually conquering the sector is something I have contemplated over the releases and never did.  The income they got from hundreds of Pop&Inf. is about what I expected.

I could decivilize worlds peacefully by stealth raiding them into the ground for prolonged sub-zero stability, but Decivilized condition that results from that is worse than Pollution (which only appears on habitables) that results from bombing, plus sat bombing is much faster than peaceful destabilization, so I prefer to sat bomb worlds I want to conquer or simply neutralize to stop the raids.

Rebel or die. If a governing body hires terrorists, who then mess up a simple raiding run attacking the head of the opposing state, and the main forces of the governing body assist the terrorist resulting in a full blown war, it is on the citizenry to step in and stop their government. Lore wise, if they don't it will clearly escalate until sat bombing, as their government is resorting to terrorism over tiny market shares, and when I say tiny I mean less than 10%.
There also is no alternative in Vanilla.

There is an alternative, but it is not a good one, which is paying tribute (whether money, rep, and/or story points) to the extortionists before they launch their raider fleets periodically.  So, it is a choice between being a tributary to all of the major factions, fight the raiders as they come, or exterminating them for a permanent solution.  I guess there is no alternative to extermination for those who want a final solution for the babysitting problem caused by major factions.

It would be nice if the player can demand tribute and back it up with force like the major factions can.

[Nick9]

yeah guys I too very much like Nex and stuff, but keep in mind, removing protection will (100%) bite any in the ass who'll decide to do some story quests. I've ruined Sindrian quest for myself some time ago because I've captured freaking Umbra. and then I also ruined that knight quest after visiting all shrines and I still don't know which capture caused it (not Mazalot/"that LP planet"/Gilead, they were never captured).

[Sleet]

While I'm here. @Alex mining + refining + a domain artifact should not cause an active Luddic Path cell and an increase to Hostile Activity. It also shouldn't cause LP armadas to pop into existence from nowhere in my system the moment it happens.

It totally should. Captain, you are dealing with an armed, violent, and politically-motivated sect of fanatic terrorists. These terrorists have considerable manpower, bases across the fringe worlds, and adept political/military leadership. They likely receive support from sympathetic factions of a religious organisation so large it consecrated its own polity around Canaan and Eos Exodus. You have deployed an autonomous mantle bore on your world. You, a glutton, a fool, have been so direly swayed by the lucre of Mammon's silver that you set loose a roving demon on a world that drills deep into its mantle, piercing its crust in an unholy exorcism that churns minerals from the ground with such ease that Moloch himself is astounded. It makes sense that unless aptly protected, those who walk Ludd's Path will seize upon your world with a righteous vengeance; hurling holy armadas at your planets with reckless abandon. Rule no. 1 of game design is balance (well, maybe not rule no. 1, but whatever) -- it is both mechanically sound and lore-accurate that Pathers will impose consequences on you for abuse of the industrial technology that led humanity astray in the first place. Or whatever.

I do not buy the excuse of majors vs upstart after the so-called upstart has grown to superpower status and can wipe all of them off the map.

I do. Colonies are OP right now and utterly *** progression in very fundamental ways; lore-accuracy means you'll always be seen as an upstart. Want to wipe them off the map? Then do it.

[eert5rty7u8i9i7u6yrewqdef]

While I'm here. @Alex mining + refining + a domain artifact should not cause an active Luddic Path cell and an increase to Hostile Activity. It also shouldn't cause LP armadas to pop into existence from nowhere in my system the moment it happens.

It totally should. Captain, you are dealing with an armed, violent, and politically-motivated sect of fanatic terrorists. These terrorists have considerable manpower, bases across the fringe worlds, and adept political/military leadership. They likely receive support from sympathetic factions of a religious organisation so large it consecrated its own polity around Canaan and Eos Exodus. You have deployed an autonomous mantle bore on your world. You, a glutton, a fool, have been so direly swayed by the lucre of Mammon's silver that you set loose a roving demon on a world that drills deep into its mantle, piercing its crust in an unholy exorcism that churns minerals from the ground with such ease that Moloch himself is astounded. It makes sense that unless aptly protected, those who walk Ludd's Path will seize upon your world with a righteous vengeance; hurling holy armadas at your planets with reckless abandon. Rule no. 1 of game design is balance (well, maybe not rule no. 1, but whatever) -- it is both mechanically sound and lore-accurate that Pathers will impose consequences on you for abuse of the industrial technology that led humanity astray in the first place. Or whatever.

Except the problem is refining generates 2 points of LP interest, mining generates 1 point, and all Domain artifacts generate 4 regardless of what they are, the exception being Hypershunt Taps.
It doesn't make sense for the LP to be angry about mining and refining, meanwhile it would make sense for them to be angry about fuel production and heavy industry but neither generate LP interest.
That's my problem. It makes no sense lore wise and is annoying gameplay wise.
Likewise, it doesn't make sense lore or gameplay wise why I have to give the Path a planet killer to get them to leave me alone, when I can just bluff that I'll use it on Gilead if they keep bothering me.
The Path just doesn't make sense.

Also no, sat bombing Gilead wouldn't work as a threat as it would still be habitable afterwards. Dirty, but habitable. A planet killer would render it uninhabitable. Given it's the jewel of the Luddic faith, and clearly where a large portion of Pather resources are coming from, it would be a viable threat.

[Megas]

I do. Colonies are OP right now and utterly *** progression in very fundamental ways; lore-accuracy means you'll always be seen as an upstart. Want to wipe them off the map? Then do it.

When the world presented by lore clash with the world presented by game mechanics, I side with the latter.

I would think that those who see the new superpower (does not matter how seemingly impossibly fast they got strong so fast) an upstart would think twice after one of them tries to fight a war with the upstart then gets annihilated as a result of it.  If they do not, they better be ready to risk getting annihilated if they want to fight a war.

I do not want wipe major factions off the map being the only viable long-term diplomatic solution.  (And I do not consider paying tribute a good one either.)  That said, I do like having the option of wiping all the core worlds off the map if they do not take the hint and leave my faction alone or if I decide to play Ming the Merciless and conquer the whole sector.

As long as the player is able to build up a new major faction, the game ought to have the major factions recognize that instead of the current endless raids until they are stopped by removing them off the map, and plot armor magically block their destruction until their side quests are done feels broken, and blatant railroading in an otherwise sandbox game.

Except the problem is refining generates 2 points of LP interest, mining generates 1 point, and all Domain artifacts generate 4 regardless of what they are, the exception being Hypershunt Taps.
It doesn't make sense for the LP to be angry about mining and refining, meanwhile it would make sense for them to be angry about fuel production and heavy industry but neither generate LP interest.
That's my problem. It makes no sense lore wise and is annoying gameplay wise.
Likewise, it doesn't make sense lore or gameplay wise why I have to give the Path a planet killer to get them to leave me alone, when I can just bluff that I'll use it on Gilead if they keep bothering me.
The Path just doesn't make sense.

Also no, sat bombing Gilead wouldn't work as a threat as it would still be habitable afterwards. Dirty, but habitable. A planet killer would render it uninhabitable. Given it's the jewel of the Luddic faith, and clearly where a large portion of Pather resources are coming from, it would be a viable threat.

It is probably assumed that Fuel Production and Heavy Industry will get an artifact, so they will give +4 through their item.  (May not be possible to meet demand of High Command without artifacts or AI cores.)  I think they used to give +2 (for +6 from +2 and +4) in some prior release, so they would be the only industry (or at least no Mining and no Refinery) on the planet if you do not want cells.  Then that was removed.

I do agree it is annoying.  It is a reason why I do not put Mining>Refinery>Orbital Works on one planet.  It cannot use any artifact without getting a cell.

Pathers are not right in the head.  They might as well be the Joker from Batman.

[Sleet]

Except the problem is refining generates 2 points of LP interest, mining generates 1 point, and all Domain artifacts generate 4 regardless of what they are, the exception being Hypershunt Taps.
It doesn't make sense for the LP to be angry about mining and refining, meanwhile it would make sense for them to be angry about fuel production and heavy industry but neither generate LP interest.
That's my problem. It makes no sense lore wise and is annoying gameplay wise.
Likewise, it doesn't make sense lore or gameplay wise why I have to give the Path a planet killer to get them to leave me alone, when I can just bluff that I'll use it on Gilead if they keep bothering me.
The Path just doesn't make sense.

Also no, sat bombing Gilead wouldn't work as a threat as it would still be habitable afterwards. Dirty, but habitable. A planet killer would render it uninhabitable. Given it's the jewel of the Luddic faith, and clearly where a large portion of Pather resources are coming from, it would be a viable threat.

...you are aware that the Path's raison d'être is the need to destroy Domain-era technology? Mining and refining would generate interest, but not enough to cause the Path to want to destroy your world. But adding an autonomous mantle bore? Sabotaging a world that makes use of such an item would be a great victory, and unless you take measures to prevent them, they'll try and sabotage you.

Like: "why aren't the [radical religious zealots who believe fuel production is a sin] acting reasonably enough for my liking?"

Deploying a PK on Gilead would galvinise the Pathers more -- it'd be treated as a sign of Armageddon, inspire hundreds of thousands of faithful to swell their ranks, and would also cause the rest of the sector to hate you. Why would they stop you?

As long as the player is able to build up a new major faction, the game ought to have the major factions recognize that instead of the current endless raids until they are stopped by removing them off the map, and plot armor magically block their destruction until their side quests are done feels broken, and blatant railroading in an otherwise sandbox game.

I mean... I think colonies are too OP, so I've got a solution...

[eert5rty7u8i9i7u6yrewqdef]

Except the problem is refining generates 2 points of LP interest, mining generates 1 point, and all Domain artifacts generate 4 regardless of what they are, the exception being Hypershunt Taps.
It doesn't make sense for the LP to be angry about mining and refining, meanwhile it would make sense for them to be angry about fuel production and heavy industry but neither generate LP interest.
That's my problem. It makes no sense lore wise and is annoying gameplay wise.
Likewise, it doesn't make sense lore or gameplay wise why I have to give the Path a planet killer to get them to leave me alone, when I can just bluff that I'll use it on Gilead if they keep bothering me.
The Path just doesn't make sense.

Also no, sat bombing Gilead wouldn't work as a threat as it would still be habitable afterwards. Dirty, but habitable. A planet killer would render it uninhabitable. Given it's the jewel of the Luddic faith, and clearly where a large portion of Pather resources are coming from, it would be a viable threat.

...you are aware that the Path's raison d'être is the need to destroy Domain-era technology? Mining and refining would generate interest, but not enough to cause the Path to want to destroy your world. But adding an autonomous mantle bore? Sabotaging a world that makes use of such an item would be a great victory, and unless you take measures to prevent them, they'll try and sabotage you.

Like: "why aren't the [radical religious zealots who believe fuel production is a sin] acting reasonably enough for my liking?"

Deploying a PK on Gilead would galvinise the Pathers more -- it'd be treated as a sign of Armageddon, inspire hundreds of thousands of faithful to swell their ranks, and would also cause the rest of the sector to hate you. Why would they stop you?

I think I'm not making myself clear. I'm fine with Domain artifacts generating Pather interest. I disagree that a fullerene spool, and a biofactory embyro should generate the same interest.
I also disagree that mining and refining should generate interest if fuel production and heavy industry generate none.
Megas is probably right as to why, but giving fuel production +1, heavy industry +1, and reducing refining down to +1 wouldn't hurt anything.

As for why they would stop you is pretty simple. Who told the Player where the PK was? The Path. Who has been slowly killing the Player via a thousand cuts? The Path.
Who has been supporting the Path in their rampant terrorism against the Player for a bit of mining, refining, and a fullerene spool? The Church.

The Player can't use the PK as they lack the codes, however, the Path is unlikely to know that, and even if they do, it was being guarded by some very bored AI cores. So it is a bluff.
The bluff would go as follow.

Player: "After I have destroyed Gilead the sector will demand answers for my actions, and I will tell them the truth. I will provide them with proof of your ceaseless piracy and terrorism against me, despite my best efforts to reason with you. I will provide them proof of you giving me the location of the PK, in the hopes of claiming it for your own genocidally nefarious purposes. I will provide them the endless proof that I have gathered from your operatives that I have captured, of the Church's backing, funding, and partial direction of your actions.
The Sector at large will not accept this proof as justification for my actions. However, their acceptance was never an issue.
The point it to make it brutally clear that the reason the Church was attacked is due to their support of your needless war. To make it inescapable clear that the reason Gilead was destroyed was due to your corruption and pursuit of technological power.
The devastating loss in population, combined with the following cataclysmic reformation in the Church will see the end of all Pather support, and the beginning of hostilities for the role you played in Gilead's death. Along with the Sector wide crackdown on the Luddic Path as it's now clear you're entirely set on wholesale genocide.
You've given me the choice between dying slowly by a thousand Pather cuts, or destroying us both. There is no choice."

Pather station head: "Then why are you here?"

Player: "Simple. While I am not above genociding millions for the abominable actions of a few. Unlike you, I have no desire for it. I am here to give you one last chance to choose a different path."

After which point the Pathers will cease attacking the Player for a time, until a later meeting point at which they will set the peace requirements for the Player. Which will be no using AI cores, and possible no using Hypershunt Taps. It really depends lore wise how Alex wants the Path to be portrayed for the latter requirement.

So, TLDR: The Path will negotiate rather than run the risk of Gilead being destroyed, as it will destroy them as well for the role they played.