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[Princess of Evil]

Just had a thought about HSA.
As we all know, HSA is, at best, an annoyance, and generally just worse than using pulse weapons of the tier.
What if, instead of halving range, a similar system, in exchange for hard flux on shield, made firing the weapon generate like 15% hard flux?

[TheLaughingDead]

I think this idea has a lot of potential, even for non-HSA hullmods. From a balance perspective though, current HSA nerfs beam range because (most) beams have great range, so giving them hard flux damage would make kiting a much more viable strategy.

In the proposed case here, some number tweaks would be required but I think it could work.
15% hard flux is really low, considering that a ship with okay speed and 1000+ range can likely actively vent that flux before it becomes a liability. For example, a Graviton Beam would spend 11 flux/sec to generate 200(!) shield flux/sec on an enemy ship from 1000+ range away. A High-Intensity Laser would spend 60 flux/sec to generate 250(!!!) shield flux/sec on an enemy ship from 1000+ range away, and the enemy can't drop their shield to vent that flux otherwise they eat the disgusting armour/hull DPS of an HIL.
Now, more feasibly, I believe that this change could work if the numbers were more 1-1, and/or if a speed nerf was included. So for example, if 100% of the flux cost was hard flux and the firing ship got a 20% speed reduction, I think there could be an argument for feasibility. Or if there were some hypothetical mechanic in which the firing ship generated hard flux equal to the damage dealt by the weapon, then the firing ship would be much less oppressive because the benefits of doing high damage at high range are in exchange for that 1-1 ratio (because often the player is facing fleets much larger than themselves).

But in general, I like this idea because it still retains the concept of (1000-range) beams being primarily support weapons. In this case, even though they would do decent DPS at a great range, they are still support weapons because they would also weaken the ships using them and leave them vulnerable to enemies. This makes spamming the ships less effective than having a couple to help out a sturdy frontline. Kind of like a support Sunder; slowish and squishy, but capable of putting out good damage from range.

[Killer of Fate]

Just had a thought about HSA.
As we all know, HSA is, at best, an annoyance, and generally just worse than using pulse weapons of the tier.
What if, instead of halving range, a similar system, in exchange for hard flux on shield, made firing the weapon generate like 15% hard flux?

woah, boy...

U have no idea how hard I tried to make HSA work. There is an issue to it, not necessarily caused by the fact that it is weak, but by the fact of how ships are designed. Truth be told, if you manage to get close as a Sunder vessel with a Tachyon Lance HSA, then you are going to be able to deal a lot of damage.

Why? First of all, the thing that most people forget when discussing HSA is how energy weapon mastery works. It is scaling off range, so the closer you are, the more damage you deal. This is to punish beam weapons for their general cowardliness, but doesn't work due to some aspects operating here.

First of all... The way how high tech ships work is that when they get close to fire their energy beam weapons, their shields are going to get overloaded quickly. Nearly all ships that utilize these kinds of energy weapons are glass cannons or too slow to get in close to utilize that. Also, another thing. There are ships that can fire a HSA weapon without problems, such as the Paragon. But with how Paragon works, it is capable of simply overwhelming shields with general non-HSA shots of a Tachyon Lance.

So, how do we fix this? There are a couple of solutions, and none of them should have to do with range. Number 1... Design an armor focused ship that can get in close and fight long enough to make up for damage taken during initial part of the engagement. Low Tech ships that would be able to use large energy weapons could benefit from HSA, as the time of engagement that it would take for them to finally die would be long enough for the HSA damage to passive time ratio to pay off...

The longer a ship fights with a superior damage weapon, but shorter range against a lower DPS with longer range, the higher the chance the former will win rather than the latter.

You could also reduce the HSA op cost slightly and give it the secondary effect of lowering the amount of flux spent. I have experimented with that and will most likely return to working on that further. That way you could have ships of high tech standard fire at enemies at closer ranges at higher benefit without dying. As even if their flux would be consumed by hard flux, the negligible cost of beam weapons which are usually not as demanding as say a plasma cannon, but equally as effective, due to for example dealing countering damage like high-explosive or kinetic, or having an EMP effect like Tachyon Lance. Tachyon Lance is especially good on HSA, cause the hard flux build up allows for the EMP effect to trigger.

The final solution would be to increase the cap after which the beam's range is halved. Change it from 200 to 400... That way a weapon like the Tachyon Lance would go from having 600 range with HSA to having 700 range. Which is a really big difference. Especially considering further benefits such as Integrated Targeting Unit. But I have consulted temporarily with Alex via twitter on this subject and at the moment he said that he would prefer to simply remove the HSA from the game, as it does not fit his balance design philosophy. Fear not however, I will soon design a mod that will make HSA balanced and then peace will reign over humanity for the next two thousand years after which Baobab will descend and take over the Pennsylvania and kill Count Dracula, beginning the new age of Golden Babies.

[Nettle]

First of all... The way how high tech ships work is that when they get close to fire their energy beam weapons, their shields are going to get overloaded quickly. Nearly all ships that utilize these kinds of energy weapons are glass cannons or too slow to get in close to utilize that. Also, another thing. There are ships that can fire a HSA weapon without problems, such as the Paragon. But with how Paragon works, it is capable of simply overwhelming shields with general non-HSA shots of a Tachyon Lance.

High tech are only glass cannons in a sense that there is no reliable second layer of defence they can fall back to, their shields are, however, universally durable, and lack of either baseline high top speed or mobility system is an exception not the rule. Generaly speaking almost entirety of high-tech line-up are strike ships. The damage increase you get from HSA, however, isn't enough to turn your regular non-burst beam into a strike weapon, neither its enough to give you an edge in out-brawling ballistic oriented ships. In my opinion its just fundamentally flawed and can't be redeemed with minor stat changes alone.

[Killer of Fate]

High tech are only glass cannons in a sense that there is no reliable second layer of defence they can fall back to, their shields are, however, universally durable, and lack of either baseline high top speed or mobility system is an exception not the rule. Generaly speaking almost entirety of high-tech line-up are strike ships. The damage increase you get from HSA, however, isn't enough to turn your regular non-burst beam into a strike weapon, neither its enough to give you an edge in out-brawling ballistic oriented ships. In my opinion its just fundamentally flawed and can't be redeemed with minor stat changes alone.

Exception not the rule? Do you play this game?

Wolf, Shrike, Fury, Omen, Tempest, Apogee, Astral, Odyssey...
And before buffs Medusa, Aurora as well.

Shields take everything as flat damage, and they are tied to flux capacity which gets eaten by the utilization of excessive weaponry that is needed to commit into strike dmg. And this is why using these ships is so *** annoying. You can make them viable, ridiculously viable.

You need various skills, including stuff like ordnance expertise, field modulation, systems expertise. And to fire, it is nearly impossible without stuff like gunnery implants, otherwise the dumb flippin' dean dingus ship is going to fire all its shots at the enemy like it was playing Hollow Knight/Celeste on vsync.

When people talk about high tech ships being durable what they tend to omit is that they have built-in like twelve hundred s-mods into them, and those are usually Hyperion. And Hyperion is not easy to kill. Not at all. But Omen? Omen is only good at surviving cause it has like... Good mobility, small profile, and works around enemy ships which are too slow to catch up with it. And lesser ships don't have a good loadout to deal with its shield heavy profile. But if you employ kinetic weaponry and rush it down, it is usually a freaking balloon of blood ready to pop open.

Most high tech ships can't get close at all. They will come close, start overfluxing, panic and then start awkwardly shuffling away. Have you ever seen like 3 Furies fighting a Legion? It's *** comical. They can't do anything, they just walk up to it, fire at it with their minuscule 600 range lasers and then go like "oh, no... I'm almost at max flux".

This is also why Tri-Tachyon sucks so much ass, and Remnants eat the *** sun with a fork and a knife.

On one hand, you have Tri-Tachyon which get their officers at the freaking Wendies. They like find people hibernating inside their fridge or whatever. And then they put them to pilot a forty morbillion dollars spaceship. And it's like a lvl 1 officer talking to you on how if you hurt them, they're going to sue you.

And then on the other hand you have Alpha core spam which are like "I HAVE ACCESS TO OLD WORLD'S KNOWLEDGE" and then they zoom around with 0 weaknesses on their ridiculously overpowered spaceship with perfect accuracy, impossible to pierce shield, broken mobility and access to 10 times what would usually be normal damage, cause all these things work together and cause a freaking feedback loop strong enough to break open a wall made of stable flerovium.

[FooF]

To the OP: 15% is too low, but the idea has some merit. If beams were to still have their full range, it would need to be like 50% hard flux build up. This Nu-HSA would optimally be used on ships that can kite, cause hard flux, vent, and repeat. That means something like a Tempest with 2 Gravitons could kite anything indefinitely and cause 400 shield damage/sec. Likewise, a Disco Ball Paragon would absolutely murder everything until it hit its capacity. If HSA didn't have a significant penalty, it would make beams extremely optimal. I think a 2:1 ratio is in the ballpark of hurting the enemy more than yourself but still at a significant cost. HSA ships would punch themselves out in extended fights.

However, HSA continues to be a square peg in a round hole.

[Siffrin]

I'd like for HSA and Shield Shunt to become expensive hullmods (40-50 OP) that cannot be s-modded but in return their benefits can be cranked up more similar to Phase Anchor.

[eert5rty7u8i9i7u6yrewqdef]

Just had a thought about HSA.
As we all know, HSA is, at best, an annoyance, and generally just worse than using pulse weapons of the tier.
What if, instead of halving range, a similar system, in exchange for hard flux on shield, made firing the weapon generate like 15% hard flux?

woah, boy...

U have no idea how hard I tried to make HSA work. There is an issue to it, not necessarily caused by the fact that it is weak, but by the fact of how ships are designed.

Yep, the most effective place I have found for it is on a scarab with burst pd lasers, built in expanded mags, and elite point defense. It works until fighting ordos, at which point it just dies because scarabs are terrible at managing their system and will try to 1v1 cruisers and above.
Still though, that run was the easiest omega fight I have ever had, due to their fighters getting shredded.

I've found everything else is meme tier, as if you're running SO (which is required to be fast enough to be useful), none of the beam weapons have a high enough dps to be worth it when compared to normal hard flux weapons. Well besides tach SO Sunder, but SO Sunder is always a meme.

Edit:

When people talk about high tech ships being durable what they tend to omit is that they have built-in like twelve hundred s-mods into them, and those are usually Hyperion. And Hyperion is not easy to kill. Not at all. But Omen? Omen is only good at surviving cause it has like... Good mobility, small profile, and works around enemy ships which are too slow to catch up with it. And lesser ships don't have a good loadout to deal with its shield heavy profile. But if you employ kinetic weaponry and rush it down, it is usually a freaking balloon of blood ready to pop open.

The Hyperion currently has a few AI bugs that make it a lot weaker. It teleports for no reason with reckless AI because the AI hints for the system say it's both a speed burst and an average speed increase, even though it's not a speed increase, it's a teleport. commenting out the average speed increase AI hint fixes a large volume of issues, but it still teleports at terrible times for silly reasons.
O I'm about to run into a slower bigger ship, time to teleport.
O I've decided to target a different enemy, time to teleport.
O I've been given move orders due to high flux and the captain wants me to back off safely, time to teleport.
O the enemy launched a reaper that I can shield tank, time to teleport.
Now that we've teleported, immediately reengage with 60% hard flux and no teleport.
It dies to easily avoidable chip damage, to not venting before reengaging, and due to teleporting right as an enemy cruiser or capital explodes.
So much babysitting, but I only have seven minutes to spare for the Ordos.

As for the Omen, I stopped using them, and will not use them until they get a HP armor buff. Almost all of my Omens have died bumping friendly ships.

[Princess of Evil]

A big part of it is how weapon balance works in Starsector.
Essentially, low-tech has meh reactors, but ballistics are efficient and strong and generally just better. A good look at what a ballistic weapon balanced like energy is HVD and Mjolnir, and while HVD has uses (due to great range and high hit strength), ballistic ships just don't need a plasma cannon equivalent.
Meanwhile, high-tech have powerful reactors and efficient shields, and if they had access to ballistics, they could just plug every slot with one and fire forever - but they don't. They're stuck with energy weapon tax, which are either big and flashy and scary and just inefficient, or small and efficient and so weak a decently built low-tech ship can just ignore them (or they're ions, which are efficient and scary to take on naked armor due to ion arcs).
This is also why a midline is either powerful or meh with little in-between, imo. Either they're ships built for shield use with medium reactors and weapons that are built to work off washing machine sized RTGs, or they're ships with medium reactors and weapons that are built to work off Chicomoztoc's entire power grid at once.

[Grievous69]

I mean in general it's hard to balance such hullmods which drastically change core components of the game, similar to SO. Which reminded me of a potential proposed rework for SO (think Alex first mentioned it) that makes it an active ability. The idea was to use "V" key to engage Safety Overrides since you can't active vent with the hullmod installed. Doing so you severely limit the timeframe in which it can be used, so it's easier to balance it. Something that's always on needs to be juuust right to avoid it being overpowered and on the other hand underwhelming.

Active HSA could function in a similar way, there's some good ideas here about building up hard flux. So go a step further even and disable active venting to add an addition penalty, make it only work when pressing "V" then for x amount of seconds. Now you can more easily fine tune how strong does it make the beams. And this also prevents infinite kiting problem that often comes up.

[Megas]

Any percentange of hard flux on long-range beams will enable a ship to kite and kill an enemy as long as it takes.  I have seen it when I tried one of LazyWizard's quick mods years ago, which added hard flux based on distance, and even at max range with minimal hard flux, I was still able to endlessly kite, slowly grind down, and kill enemy ships safely.


What annoys me most about my NPC Hyperion, if I try non-SO, is it spends about a minute backpedaling away from the enemy instead of teleporting when it can, burning nearly all of its PPT trying to escape once.  I have to use SO on Hyperion just so NPC Hyperion can run away fast enough without teleport (and also get enough dissipation to use three non-missile weapons).  Since it now has Delicate Machinery, I do not bother using it anymore.  CR decays way too fast.  Even with all the CR decay reduction boosts, anything with Delicate Machinery decays faster than a normal ship without Delicate Machinery and without any reduction.  There are better ships to use.  Hyperion needs more PPT if it keeps Delicate Machinery.

As for enemy Hyperion, it gets squashed flat fast, compared to earlier releases.

Related, non-SO NPC Fury is a disaster.  Fury gets in, but cannot get out fast enough when it loses the flux war.  Fury gets locked into backpedaling then gets slowly picked off and dies.  At least Aurora can avoid this with its Plasma Jets.

[Killer of Fate]

Any percentange of hard flux on long-range beams will enable a ship to kite and kill an enemy as long as it takes.  I have seen it when I tried one of LazyWizard's quick mods years ago, which added hard flux based on distance, and even at max range with minimal hard flux, I was still able to endlessly kite, slowly grind down, and kill enemy ships safely.


What annoys me most about my NPC Hyperion, if I try non-SO, is it spends about a minute backpedaling away from the enemy instead of teleporting when it can, burning nearly all of its PPT trying to escape once.  I have to use SO on Hyperion just so NPC Hyperion can run away fast enough without teleport (and also get enough dissipation to use three non-missile weapons).  Since it now has Delicate Machinery, I do not bother using it anymore.  CR decays way too fast.  Even with all the CR decay reduction boosts, anything with Delicate Machinery decays faster than a normal ship without Delicate Machinery and without any reduction.  There are better ships to use.  Hyperion needs more PPT if it keeps Delicate Machinery.

As for enemy Hyperion, it gets squashed flat fast, compared to earlier releases.

Related, non-SO NPC Fury is a disaster.  Fury gets in, but cannot get out fast enough when it loses the flux war.  Fury gets locked into backpedaling then gets slowly picked off and dies.  At least Aurora can avoid this with its Plasma Jets.

I've been redesigning Starsector a bit recently... Doing major changes. Things that cannot be really applied into the vanilla game without them being concluded and without drastically changing the face of the game, but one thing...

One thing made me wonder...

LP Colossus has this tag called "always_panic", I took it up, cause I assumed it causes the ship to be ridiculously aggressive and put it on Hyperion... The thing though is that I do not have this thing isolated in a vacuum, and I'm trying it on a modded version of the Hyperion, so I'm unsure what exactly it does yet...
I can only say that it causes Hyperion to fire all of its missiles much more freely, as if it is stuck in a state of permanent Strike behavior.

Take a look

Spoiler

[close]

On it's own though, I don't really believe it changes much. Hyperion seems to be afraid to teleport behind enemies as long as it is engaging more than one enemy. Which is reasonable considering the fact that it may have doubts about being surrounded or stuck out of place. Better safe than sorry I suppose.

In case you want to do some testing for me, go to the ship.data, take up the "always_panic" hint and paste it in the Hyperion hints section. Then tell me if this has worked. If it did... Well... We might be on to something.

[Phenir]

I can only say that it causes Hyperion to fire all of its missiles much more freely, as if it is stuck in a state of permanent Strike behavior.

That's exactly what it does. A ship in panic tries to use any missiles it has to make enemies back off to give it space to vent.

[eert5rty7u8i9i7u6yrewqdef]

Any percentange of hard flux on long-range beams will enable a ship to kite and kill an enemy as long as it takes.  I have seen it when I tried one of LazyWizard's quick mods years ago, which added hard flux based on distance, and even at max range with minimal hard flux, I was still able to endlessly kite, slowly grind down, and kill enemy ships safely.


What annoys me most about my NPC Hyperion, if I try non-SO, is it spends about a minute backpedaling away from the enemy instead of teleporting when it can, burning nearly all of its PPT trying to escape once.  I have to use SO on Hyperion just so NPC Hyperion can run away fast enough without teleport (and also get enough dissipation to use three non-missile weapons).  Since it now has Delicate Machinery, I do not bother using it anymore.  CR decays way too fast.  Even with all the CR decay reduction boosts, anything with Delicate Machinery decays faster than a normal ship without Delicate Machinery and without any reduction.  There are better ships to use.  Hyperion needs more PPT if it keeps Delicate Machinery.

As for enemy Hyperion, it gets squashed flat fast, compared to earlier releases.

Related, non-SO NPC Fury is a disaster.  Fury gets in, but cannot get out fast enough when it loses the flux war.  Fury gets locked into backpedaling then gets slowly picked off and dies.  At least Aurora can avoid this with its Plasma Jets.

Yep, for NPC control, a Hyperion needs to have SO and a reckless officer, anything less and it will do nothing for most of the fight. The issue is that the Hyperion will always have low range due to the weapons it is forced to use, be over fluxed due to the expensive nature of the weapons it has to use, and not have enough effective combat time to be useful without SO.
I ran the numbers and non-SO only has 1.5 times more effective combat time than SO. The formula is PPT+80/.25, with elite system expertise a ship can function without issue during minor malfunctions so the effective CR combat range is 100% to 20%. For non-SO you get 10min 50 seconds. For SO you get 7min 9 seconds. 650/429=1.515~
SO gets double the flux and a faster move speed, meaning it's at or more than twice as effective as non-SO.
These numbers assume you have every skill needed and hardened subsystems to max out combat effectiveness time.

Spoiler

Any percentange of hard flux on long-range beams will enable a ship to kite and kill an enemy as long as it takes.  I have seen it when I tried one of LazyWizard's quick mods years ago, which added hard flux based on distance, and even at max range with minimal hard flux, I was still able to endlessly kite, slowly grind down, and kill enemy ships safely.


What annoys me most about my NPC Hyperion, if I try non-SO, is it spends about a minute backpedaling away from the enemy instead of teleporting when it can, burning nearly all of its PPT trying to escape once.  I have to use SO on Hyperion just so NPC Hyperion can run away fast enough without teleport (and also get enough dissipation to use three non-missile weapons).  Since it now has Delicate Machinery, I do not bother using it anymore.  CR decays way too fast.  Even with all the CR decay reduction boosts, anything with Delicate Machinery decays faster than a normal ship without Delicate Machinery and without any reduction.  There are better ships to use.  Hyperion needs more PPT if it keeps Delicate Machinery.

As for enemy Hyperion, it gets squashed flat fast, compared to earlier releases.

Related, non-SO NPC Fury is a disaster.  Fury gets in, but cannot get out fast enough when it loses the flux war.  Fury gets locked into backpedaling then gets slowly picked off and dies.  At least Aurora can avoid this with its Plasma Jets.

I've been redesigning Starsector a bit recently... Doing major changes. Things that cannot be really applied into the vanilla game without them being concluded and without drastically changing the face of the game, but one thing...

One thing made me wonder...

LP Colossus has this tag called "always_panic", I took it up, cause I assumed it causes the ship to be ridiculously aggressive and put it on Hyperion... The thing though is that I do not have this thing isolated in a vacuum, and I'm trying it on a modded version of the Hyperion, so I'm unsure what exactly it does yet...
I can only say that it causes Hyperion to fire all of its missiles much more freely, as if it is stuck in a state of permanent Strike behavior.

Take a look

Spoiler

[close]

On it's own though, I don't really believe it changes much. Hyperion seems to be afraid to teleport behind enemies as long as it is engaging more than one enemy. Which is reasonable considering the fact that it may have doubts about being surrounded or stuck out of place. Better safe than sorry I suppose.

In case you want to do some testing for me, go to the ship.data, take up the "always_panic" hint and paste it in the Hyperion hints section. Then tell me if this has worked. If it did... Well... We might be on to something.

[close]

You partially stumbled on one of the better ways to balance the Hyperion without realizing it. For what it can do and what it can yield, the Hyperion has too much OP, but you don't want to just nerf its OP as that reduces the total number of viable builds. The solution is to give it omni shields and reduce its shield arc so that both frontal shields and extended shields have to be added to give it 360 degree shielding. This is of course assuming that delicate machinery is removed.

[Killer of Fate]

You partially stumbled on one of the better ways to balance the Hyperion without realizing it. For what it can do and what it can yield, the Hyperion has too much OP, but you don't want to just nerf its OP as that reduces the total number of viable builds. The solution is to give it omni shields and reduce its shield arc so that both frontal shields and extended shields have to be added to give it 360 degree shielding. This is of course assuming that delicate machinery is removed.

Yes, I have also removed Delicate Machinery, and gave the ship 180 peak operating time. I have also replaced its mounts with 2 composites and 1 energy. I have also overhauled its mobility stats and health stats. I've reduced the amount of flux it has and gave it more armor, at least on the level of a Cerberus vessel. Took down High Maintenance, increased crew amount (important as I am testing increasing crew salary to something like 0.5-1k credits). Etc. But you see, I have also done other things to nerf the Hyperion. I have buffed fighter numbers by giving them higher health and armor stats and better deacceleration and turning. Don't worry though, I was also planning to buff some and simply rework most PD weapons to make up for that fact, and overall the point is to rework the game so it operates on a completely different axis of existence.

The issue with Hyperion is very similar to the issue of Remnant ships. It belongs to a completely different game, so it has to have many drawbacks to justify its existence. Justify it against the fact that it is overpowered. Most vessels in Starsector are slow, immobile, possess extensive PD networks and they also have large range. You have ships like Paragon, Onslaught, Eagle, Retribution, Mora, Heron, Fury. Each of these ships has a large focus on their defenses. The amount of stupid useless PD slots a Fury has at the cost of actual good weapons, the fact that Eagle's medium energies are positioned in such a way that they are usually meant for simple support role. Ships of this kind do not kill their enemies, they exhaust them. They fire, and then reload and keep doing so until they finish. With the only way to actually conclude someone is to have excessive firepower, or access to ridiculous strike potential, such as a Paragon with Reapers and a Missile Autoloader. Quite effective.

Hyperion, Radiant, Glimmer, Tesseract, Guardian on the other hand are very different ships. Yes, they are good at retreating, but they are also ridiculously mobile, impossible to catch up and they have weapons systems that de-emphasize point defense and emphasize the ability to kill their target. At least, in theory. Current theory. Imagine it this way. Onslaught fights the weather. Hyperion simply ignores the storm.. And proceeds to run through it in order to stab you in the back with a random level of success. But then, what does any of this mean? It means that offensive ships are way better than defensive ships, and before you say that Monitor is an exception, yes. Yes it is. Why? Because flux toilet is *** broken.

In order to deal with this issue the current solutions have been "who cares" and "plz, nerf". A ship like Hyperion vanished from existence. A ship like Astral is kept from existing in the first place. A ship like Guardian is inaccessible, also because it uses broken hullmods, like space station missile amounts. However a ship like Radiant is still accessible, however in order to pilot it, you must dedicate an entire character skill tree to doing so. There has never been any other solution. A ship that fires guns will also have an advantage over a ship that is meant to be universally protected against all kinds of threats, especially ones that aren't really that dangerous at all, such as reaper missiles. (Talking about Onslaught). The only way to solve this problem once and for all is to rework everything. Redesign all ships to posses the sort of aggression we crave from Hyperion. So that Hyperion finally is not the exception of Starsector, not the black sheep of the family, but just another member of these highly strange designs. Each a hostile raptor of its own.

But, you probably don't care about all that...