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[Killer of Fate]

Skip Political Headcannon

Spoiler

I feel like it can be quite a political topic to discuss why the LG is supposed to be as bad as they are. I feel like in my opinion they are meant to be reminiscent of the World War II fascist "elite" units. Who from my understanding, even though had access to significant funds from the central government they got kinda clowned on due to always underestimating the capabilities of their enemies. But that is kinda irrelevant...

[close]

The point is though that maybe we can... Have this slightly changed? I understand that LG is meant to be non-elite but rather just... Kinda stupid. But maybe we can keep them somewhat threatening? Like... The way entering a jungle and seeing a giant bird with a large amount of feathers makes us feel like we're dealing with something stupid. But still, it has large claws.

I feel like we should change the LG doctrine from 5 in quality... First of all, we should make investing in quality more efficient, but that is a whole different subject. Basically. Give them a bit in officers, make it feel like LG is not only wasting a lot of money on having cute looking ships, but also hiring the strangest people to serve on them. Like give them some lore on how LG sits around and plays a lot of simulations, making them reckless but also at least a bit skilled... Like level 3 doctrine in officers.

Then, make their ships a bit different... Just a bit... Remove their op penalty, let them keep their solar shielding. But make Andrada Mods a built-in mod that cannot be removed. Why? Solar shielding may be just a logistical addition, but the energy mounts on the front can be kinda dangerous if you design them well. A pure energy focus is a somewhat lethal combination, especially if the energy weapon mounts are positioned in a way that they are closer to the enemy. The supporting energy mounts of say... Graviton beams paired with a phase lance punishment sounds deadly. Because it is deadly...

So the point would be:
"Wow, these ships have this huge flux debuff... But also... They have the ability to make new dangerous combinations... But then again the debuff affects their flux venting... Which is needed for the energy weapons which take a lot of flux...".
Get it?

But then again, this is my personal opinion. I was also testing this on my modded game, so maybe the base flux stats of Falcon and Eagle make it so ridiculously impossible to host a good energy weapon combination, that they are just bad...

ps. yes, I know this is has a lot of dot dot dot, it's meant to express uncertainty about the subject.

[Nick9]

I remember when I did Sunder only challenge, LG ones were kinda useful because of hybrid slots instead of ballistic, at least I could install Burst PD to provide somewhat better survivability against suppression.

I remember it's a parade modification and it's difficult to get LG ships in a first place. Why would you even focus on it? What's the point of making LG... a serious modification, instead of, for example, making a mod with yet another ship modification that is controversial good, just not LG?

[Killer of Fate]

I remember when I did Sunder only challenge, LG ones were kinda useful because of hybrid slots instead of ballistic, at least I could install Burst PD to provide somewhat better survivability against suppression.

I remember it's a parade modification and it's difficult to get LG ships in a first place. Why would you even focus on it? What's the point of making LG... a serious modification, instead of, for example, making a mod with yet another ship modification that is controversial good, just not LG?

No... The point isn't to make the LG modification serious. It's to force the player to keep it on. Having LG ships without LG hullmod feels weird.

In the current build you can remove the LG hullmod, but then the OP cost of solar shielding is there to torture you. I say, we reverse the situation. Remove the OP cost of solar shielding and then make the LG hullmod non-d so it can't be fixed, and you're forced to have the flux venting penalty, as well as its other effects.

Also, yeah. Having the LG ships isn't really the point of the game, though if we ever tried to make them act in other places than just within the Askonia, say... Some stupid *** like, guarding secret Sindrian space stations, then maybe it would be cooler if they were... Slightly more dangerous? Just for gameplay's sake?

[Nick9]

Ok, I totally agree on what was said. Btw I am playing with mods and LG is not a removable modificator (though still a D-mod). I thought it was supposed to be this way

[Killer of Fate]

Ok, I totally agree on what was said. Btw I am playing with mods and LG is not a removable modificator (though still a D-mod). I thought it was supposed to be this way

strange, i swear on my playthrough all u have to do is restore the hull

[Megas]

I would like Hull Restoration to remove the Special Mods d-mod.  Executor is the one blueprint/ship where if I want a pristine hull, I have to Restore it.  Hull Restoration does not work, and you still get the d-mod if you build it yourself.  Alternatively, Restore should not remove that d-mod.  Makes Hull Restoration look broken (and underpowered) for not doing what Restore can do.

On the other hand, Special Mods is great for Derelict Ops build.

[WENth100]

The problem right now is that some variants of the LG ships feel utterly and completely pointless besides looking cool, ships like the Sunder, Eagle and Falcon are just flat out worse, the Sunder changing the 3 small ballistics to hybrids did have some benefits as mentioned above, but combine it with the OP reducting and having no EBC make it feel pointless still. Changing the 2 ballistic hard points on the front of the Eagle and the Falcon is not enough to justify losing that many OPs and getting a D-mod, especially the Falcon which is already short on OP as it is now.

These 3 variants should at least have Energy Bolt Coherer like the rest of the LG ships which makes them at least worth considering, and for the Eagle and the Falcon, swapping the positions ballistic mounts and the energy mounts on the normal will make them more interesting and give an actual incentive to use them and take advantage of their EBC.

Also the way that the LG ships are designed told us one thing: Kanta's "tech wizards" are better engineers than trained Diktat professionals. Most pirate ships are either worse than the original but make up by being cheaper to deploy (Afflicter, Wolf, Shade, Eradicator etc), or are basically the same as the original (Manticore), conversions that could potentially offer something interesting (Colossus Mk III and Atlas Mk II), and of course there is the best one of them all, the Pirate Falcon. Besides the Executor, most other LG ships are either straight up inferior, or are like the Pirate Shrike - the changes made to them dubious at best.

And if we are keeping the "Special Modifications" then it needs to be at least redesigned in a way that offers some benefits in exchange for drawbacks, like the Cabal Upgrades from Underworld (an overall debuff for the high-tech vessels they use but permits an additional S mod). I say instead of increasing casualties, it reduces it but remains less effective than Blast Doors, keep the Flux Dissipation Rate and repair time debuffs, and add a PPT degradation rate increase debuff on top of that to reflect cramped and difficult to traverse passages. That, remove the built in cost for the Solar Shielding and add EBC to all of them. And we are mostly set.

[WENth100]

On the other hand, Special Mods is great for Derelict Ops build.

That has indeed proven to be rather useful, I tend to run with a New Level of Confidence (because as weird as that sounds, my idea of fun is trying out whatever I feel like using and having just 15 skill points ain't close to being enough), and because of OCD, I like my ships shiny and clean. The effects of Andrada Mods^TM happened to be just bearable enough yet cannot be removed due to Hull Restoration, so now I can have a discount on all of my LG vessels, which I may run with if I want a cool yet impractical fleet or as a self-imposed challenge.

Speaking of self-imposed challenge. Is there a mod where I can actually buy LG ships off a special market instead of diving into Exiled Space and hope for the best?

[Killer of Fate]

The problem right now is that some variants of the LG ships feel utterly and completely pointless besides looking cool, ships like the Sunder, Eagle and Falcon are just flat out worse, the Sunder changing the 3 small ballistics to hybrids did have some benefits as mentioned above, but combine it with the OP reducting and having no EBC make it feel pointless still. Changing the 2 ballistic hard points on the front of the Eagle and the Falcon is not enough to justify losing that many OPs and getting a D-mod, especially the Falcon which is already short on OP as it is now.

These 3 variants should at least have Energy Bolt Coherer like the rest of the LG ships which makes them at least worth considering, and for the Eagle and the Falcon, swapping the positions ballistic mounts and the energy mounts on the normal will make them more interesting and give an actual incentive to use them and take advantage of their EBC.

Also the way that the LG ships are designed told us one thing: Kanta's "tech wizards" are better engineers than trained Diktat professionals. Most pirate ships are either worse than the original but make up by being cheaper to deploy (Afflicter, Wolf, Shade, Eradicator etc), or are basically the same as the original (Manticore), conversions that could potentially offer something interesting (Colossus Mk III and Atlas Mk II), and of course there is the best one of them all, the Pirate Falcon. Besides the Executor, most other LG ships are either straight up inferior, or are like the Pirate Shrike - the changes made to them dubious at best.

And if we are keeping the "Special Modifications" then it needs to be at least redesigned in a way that offers some benefits in exchange for drawbacks, like the Cabal Upgrades from Underworld (an overall debuff for the high-tech vessels they use but permits an additional S mod). I say instead of increasing casualties, it reduces it but remains less effective than Blast Doors, keep the Flux Dissipation Rate and repair time debuffs, and add a PPT degradation rate increase debuff on top of that to reflect cramped and difficult to traverse passages. That, remove the built in cost for the Solar Shielding and add EBC to all of them. And we are mostly set.

yeah, but the point isn't necessarily to make them functional. The point is to make them logical. The cause of Andrada Mods is the fact that they add solar shielding at the cost of ship's efficiency. Not the cost efficiency and op values on top. I mean, it feels at the moment that the ship doesn't have the solar shielding built-in, but more solar shielding being forced into the loadout.

Plus, this whole idea of LG ships to be honest feels kinda a bit rushed. The argument that they are bad on purpose, but they don't really have anything interesting about them too. Bolt Coherer feels like an addition stacked on top based of the things that were remaining from a larger update. And they don't even have that much lore implication either. And if Executor is a viable ship supposedly, then why aren't the rest too?

Spoiler

That's actually a very interesting question. There is a way to make these ships valuable with minor adjustments, and Executor has been made so, but the other ships were just assumed to be bad. Like? Why?

I guess one thing that would make these ships stupidly good, would be giving them all bonus mobility and like a microburn. But that's just weird. I feel like there is no real way of making them good without also making them feel dumb. But I also feel like making the solar shielding op cost affect the base op pool is weird looking. And it should be instead given in return for the Andrada mods.

And also, one more thing... The fact that the ship is bad on purpose isn't a real argument. It's okay if the ship is bad, but at least give it some redeeming qualities, like good armor... I mean, yeah. Ship is bad. But if the ship is bad, then why are people using it? It's not even cheap. (Here referring to pirates). Also...

You've mentioned Pirate technicians being less tired than Diktat engineers? I mean, sure. That does work on a lore level, but don't act like pirates aren't stupid too. Most of them still use Gremlins... And Hounds... And Cerberi... Each of these being their own flavor of unfairly expensive to deploy only for it being nothing but target practice for the enemy.

[close]

To be honest...

Maybe we should just revert all the ships with the exception of the Executor to them just being slightly more expensive ships cause they have a good paint job. That would actually make sense. And the Executor is the only ship that actually went through extensive modifications. And the rest are just like other skins... Mostly visual. There's even a word for it in each skins' description. Systems modifications are otherwise superficial. At least leave them at that until they can have other ideas implied onto them. Like... Microburn Eagle (that's stupid, don't do that) with heavy blasters. Or Sunder with built-in tempest drones. (that is also stupid, don't do that).

But maybe that's the thing. Andrada and his gang are stupid. And them having a lot of money, they would probably do crap like this.

[WENth100]

I have to agree with that, maybe because I have played way too many mods but looking at these LG ships I feel it necessary for them to be something different, allowing us to discover new methods of ship building and fleet organization. As of now the only incentive I have for using LG ships is because A: they look cool and B: as a self imposed challenge, because even without the OP reduction and having EBC on all LG ships, I soon discovered how terrible of an idea it is to force Midline ships to rely primarily on flux hungry energy weapons as if they were high tech ships without the use of safety overrides.

The problem with the built-in at cost Solar Shielding is indeed: they really don't make the ship any more effective, Solar Shielding is something you mount on either logistic ships or LOW TECH warships that are expected to tank hits with their armor and hull, adding them on notably less durable Midline Ships really isn't that beneficiary.

Besides the Cabal I mentioned earlier another good example I can think of are the HMI supervillians: Fang Society and Draco Group. Cool ships aside both factions have something extremely unique going on with them:

• Fang Society's primarily low tech ships mostly have accelerated ammo feeder (even the Drover has it), heavy focus on ballistics, improved armor, built in rugged construction and safety overrides (except for the Atlas Mk.II because SO really won't be of much use on that) and an improved Damper Field that allows weapons to fire while it's active. But at the cost of having no shields and heavy reduced OP.
• Draco Group's primarily high tech ships are focused on energy weapons and instead have high energy focus, they have improved engine output and much quicker active venting, and are capable of emitting EMP arcs to ward off missiles and fighters. This comes at a cost of reduced weapon range past 600su as well as slower fighter refit and replenishment for their carriers.

Of course. It will be hard pressed to make the LG ships THAT unique because it will require a lot of change to their combat AI as well. But really LG ships should serve as a potential alternative (i.e. Pegasus vs Executor) instead of just straight up worse. An example I can think of is the LG Champion in Ships & Weapons Pack, it may have sacrificed its medium hybrids for energy mounts but having EBC does make it a potentially capable hull for projectile based energy weapons.

[Aeson]

Solar Shielding is something you mount on either logistic ships or LOW TECH warships that are expected to tank hits with their armor and hull

It's also something some of us at least sometimes like to have on our entire fleet, regardless of the tech levels of individual ships, to counteract environmental effects, because hyperstorm surfing and sundiving can otherwise be very expensive/annoying and fighting the Hypershunt guardians is hard enough without corona effects significantly reducing PPT.

Also, ship hulls that come standard with built-in hullmods don't lose a built-in slot when you spend story points on the hullmods that they came with. Paying a few OP and a story point to have the benefits of built-in Solar Shielding without needing to consume one of your two or three slots for built-in hullmods may not be the best deal in the world, but it's also not the worst, and in some cases it may even be a net gain.

Oh, and personally I'd say that whether or not you're putting Solar Shielding on your ships for the damage reduction effect has at least as much to do with who you expect to be fighting as with the tech level of the ships you're using - damage reduction against energy weapons is the next best thing to useless when fighting Pirate, Hegemony, Luddic Path, Luddic Church, and Domain derelict fleets, much more useful against Tri-Tachyon, Remnant, and Omega fleets, and somewhere in between against Persean League or Sindrian fleets.

[WENth100]

Solar Shielding is something you mount on either logistic ships or LOW TECH warships that are expected to tank hits with their armor and hull

It's also something some of us at least sometimes like to have on our entire fleet, regardless of the tech levels of individual ships, to counteract environmental effects, because hyperstorm surfing and sundiving can otherwise be very expensive/annoying and fighting the Hypershunt guardians is hard enough without corona effects significantly reducing PPT.

Also, ship hulls that come standard with built-in hullmods don't lose a built-in slot when you spend story points on the hullmods that they came with. Paying a few OP and a story point to have the benefits of built-in Solar Shielding without needing to consume one of your two or three slots for built-in hullmods may not be the best deal in the world, but it's also not the worst, and in some cases it may even be a net gain.

Yeah, that is a fair point, being able to gain a 4th S mod effect is a neat feature, so is the ability to hyperspace surf, but it's still not something I want at the cost of combat efficiency. On the Executor is fine though as 350 OP still leaves a lot to spare.

[Phenir]

The problem with the built-in at cost Solar Shielding is indeed: they really don't make the ship any more effective, Solar Shielding is something you mount on either logistic ships or LOW TECH warships that are expected to tank hits with their armor and hull, adding them on notably less durable Midline Ships really isn't that beneficiary.

Solar shielding damage reduction works for shields too.

[WENth100]

Huh, so it does reduce shield damage as well, thought it only works on armor and hull for some strange reason.

[Princess of Evil]

I hate that LG default hullmod is a straight downside. It throws all nuance away (and makes it look like the game has a political stance, which i don't remember Starsector ever doing, all other factions just suck equally) and makes LG ships basically just ships with irremovable Solar Shielding and a paint job, which just isn't fun. I had an idea in a similar thread before to turn it into more of a tradeoff than a straight downside.

I would much rather have the Diktat D-mod turn into something similar to 17th.

Yes, sure, flux vents got worse and the ship overheats easier, but covering hot pipes does help with crew survivability, and extra metal in corridors does make the ship more resistant against shrapnel.
(same flux stats, but -10% crew casualties, and +5% hull)