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[Nettle]

The need for logistical skills can be circumvented by running a small fleet to save up a hefty fortune, then rapidly scale up, usually into a cruiser line or outright capitals+cruisers, with appropriate logi ships. If you just progress naturally you can easily fall behind the ever raising maintenance curve, but big leap progression such as this eliminates this uncertainty.
You can make a fortune while still running a small fleet with exploration missions, low-hazard bounties from contacts, or the aforementioned smuggling, being comissioned speeds up the process immensely. By the way, not all bounties are equal, Independents and Luddic Church have some of the weakest "deserters" spawns, yet they pay the same.

[Grievous69]

-has a 400+ DP fleet
-the game is tedious without Industry skills

You're not supposed to lug around a giant death fleet, then suggest a level cap of 20 to make it a no brainer choice for yourself. Obviously the system works fine, you just need a smaller fleet.

[eert5rty7u8i9i7u6yrewqdef]

-has a 400+ DP fleet
-the game is tedious without Industry skills

You're not supposed to lug around a giant death fleet, then suggest a level cap of 20 to make it a no brainer choice for yourself. Obviously the system works fine, you just need a smaller fleet.

Ehh, mostly. BOTB needs to be swapped with Officer Management. Almost all builds either want OM or Support Doctrine, but not both. Whereas almost all builds using OM or SD need BOTB.

Gunnery Implants, Energy Weapon Mastery, Ordnance Expertise, and Polarized Armor all need to be added to Teir 1 so Players that pilot their flagship don't have to waste a skill point on something they don't need.

Beyond that it is fine.

[Megas]

BOTB has too much.  Third s-mod and 200 (or 50%) DP minimum.  It is what a capstone should be, but none of the other capstones seem as powerful (caveat: no idea for Derelict Ops.)  Currently, almost every build I see posted has it.  Combat capstones get cheapened by officers getting them more easily than the player can.

Gunnery Implants, Energy Weapon Mastery, Ordnance Expertise, and Polarized Armor all need to be added to Teir 1 so Players that pilot their flagship don't have to waste a skill point on something they don't need.

I think both Gunnery Implants and Ordnance Expertise are overpowered and worth almost two skills (more like one-and-a-half), so being tier 2 for them is fine, although like Combat capstones, I am jealous officers can get them more easily than the player.

On the other hand, Energy Mastery is lame for beyond short-ranged energy users (beams, capitals with heavy weapons, Onslaught with TPCs) and should be changed, at least swap elite and basic so that long-ranged users are not robbed.

But I am not opposed to moving those skills, along with all tier 3 Industry skills (which do nothing for combat), to tier 1.

In particular, Industrial Planning should be tier 1.  It is a huge opportunity cost for players not after an Industry capstone to get it at tier 3, and it is likely vital for those who do not want to use AI cores in their colonies.  (Yes, almost everyone use alpha AI cores.)  Commodity demands for colonies all seem to expect the +1 from Industrial Planning.

[Nettle]

I think both Gunnery Implants and Ordnance Expertise are overpowered and worth almost two skills (more like one-and-a-half), so being tier 2 for them is fine, although like Combat capstones, I am jealous officers can get them more easily than the player.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but the way I understand this is that auto-fire accuracy part of the Gunnery Implants just sets your auto-fire tracking as if you were always at 100% CR, but since you are probably going to max out CR with Crew Training and Combat Endurance it doesn't have as much value. The range bonus is great for non-SO builds, but if you are going to pilot cruisers/capitals the ECM rating from elite version will be more valuable on smaller officered hulls.
And Ordnance Expertiseis is a weird one, because it only really shines on capitals or heavy cruisers, I think there are better ways to spend 2 skill points, and I don't consider either skill to be that overpowered.

[Megas]

Gunnery Implants adds range (+15%) and reduces recoil spread of your weapons.  As for auto-aim, my ships do not always have 100% CR (campaign hazards, back-to-back fights and/or hangar queen, Industry junker playstyle, etc.); but I do not get Gunnery Implants for auto-aim, I get it primarily for the range, which is top-tier, although less spread makes stuff too inaccurate out-of-the-box like autocannons more usable (when combined with more recoil reduction from elsewhere).

Ordnance Expertise makes it easier to fit loadouts within dissipation budget without leaving too many mounts under-gunned or empty.  I think it shines for every ship that fires guns.

[Princess of Evil]

GI's other buffs are nowhere near as good as its recoil reduction, imo. Just look at the list of B weapons held back by their terrible accuracy.

[eert5rty7u8i9i7u6yrewqdef]

Spoiler

BOTB has too much.  Third s-mod and 200 (or 50%) DP minimum.  It is what a capstone should be, but none of the other capstones seem as powerful (caveat: no idea for Derelict Ops.)  Currently, almost every build I see posted has it.  Combat capstones get cheapened by officers getting them more easily than the player can.

Gunnery Implants, Energy Weapon Mastery, Ordnance Expertise, and Polarized Armor all need to be added to Teir 1 so Players that pilot their flagship don't have to waste a skill point on something they don't need.

I think both Gunnery Implants and Ordnance Expertise are overpowered and worth almost two skills (more like one-and-a-half), so being tier 2 for them is fine, although like Combat capstones, I am jealous officers can get them more easily than the player.

On the other hand, Energy Mastery is lame for beyond short-ranged energy users (beams, capitals with heavy weapons, Onslaught with TPCs) and should be changed, at least swap elite and basic so that long-ranged users are not robbed.

But I am not opposed to moving those skills, along with all tier 3 Industry skills (which do nothing for combat), to tier 1.

In particular, Industrial Planning should be tier 1.  It is a huge opportunity cost for players not after an Industry capstone to get it at tier 3, and it is likely vital for those who do not want to use AI cores in their colonies.  (Yes, almost everyone use alpha AI cores.)  Commodity demands for colonies all seem to expect the +1 from Industrial Planning.

[close]

I'm perfectly fine with BOTB getting nerfed so it doesn't have 200DP minimum in return for being swapped with OM. Most fleets will incorporate enough point capping frigates to ensure the full 240 can be deployed, which leaves the current 200DP bonus only being useful for niche loadouts, like the five capital fleets.

While both GI and OE are powerful, having them both on tier two reduces the flexibility of builds and makes some fleet loadouts better than others only due to how the character skills are distributed.

The most effective Officer Managment fleet loadout is the following.
5 combat skills, 4 + capstone. 6 leadership skills, three tier 1+ both tier 2 + BOTB. 3 technology skills, with the final being cybernetic Augmentation.
This leaves over exactly 1 skill point. If the player's ship needs Ordnance Expertise or Polarized Armor for the build to work, then the build can't work. If they don't need it, then they can grab another skill from the other skill branches, which will typically be Flux Regulation.
This gives 11 level 6 4 elite skill officers with three built in hullmod ships with one officer having the best piloting possible, which is the optimum loadout for Officer Managment.

An alternative to this is to drop the required combat skills for the capstone down to 3 from 4, or count tech and industry combat skills towards the combat capstone.

This is also why support Doctrine sees so little use, as it directly competes with BOTB, which is just flat out better, or you have to give up skills elsewhere. Which means OM fleets are always going to be better than SD fleets.

Likewise, don't even get me started on just how much of an ineffective meme Derelict Operations is outside of niche low DP builds.

[Megas]

This is also why support Doctrine sees so little use, as it directly competes with BOTB, which is just flat out better, or you have to give up skills elsewhere. Which means OM fleets are always going to be better than SD fleets.

The recent builds I have seen that have Support Doctrine also have BotB, those with Leadership 8+.

An alternative to this is to drop the required combat skills for the capstone down to 3 from 4, or count tech and industry combat skills towards the combat capstone.

I would say do both because officers do just that.  Human officers only need three for combat capstone #1 and four for capstone #2, and tech/industry skills count as much as combat toward combat capstones for them.

[Hiruma Kai]

The most effective Officer Managment fleet loadout is the following.
5 combat skills, 4 + capstone. 6 leadership skills, three tier 1+ both tier 2 + BOTB. 3 technology skills, with the final being cybernetic Augmentation.
This leaves over exactly 1 skill point. If the player's ship needs Ordnance Expertise or Polarized Armor for the build to work, then the build can't work. If they don't need it, then they can grab another skill from the other skill branches, which will typically be Flux Regulation.
This gives 11 level 6 4 elite skill officers with three built in hullmod ships with one officer having the best piloting possible, which is the optimum loadout for Officer Managment.

An alternative to this is to drop the required combat skills for the capstone down to 3 from 4, or count tech and industry combat skills towards the combat capstone.

This is also why support Doctrine sees so little use, as it directly competes with BOTB, which is just flat out better, or you have to give up skills elsewhere. Which means OM fleets are always going to be better than SD fleets.

Likewise, don't even get me started on just how much of an ineffective meme Derelict Operations is outside of niche low DP builds.

Out of curiosity, why not just respec and take the skill point out of officer management, turn the 2 extra officers into mercenaries, spend a couple story points to keep them on every few years (just throw it on the pile of 88+ points already spent - 10 for mentoring, 40 for officer elite skills, 33 for triple s-mod ships, and 5 for elite personal combat skills) and take Ordinance Expertise anyways?  I wouldn't really call officer management a capstone, given its benefit can be trivially duplicated with a minor story point expenditure already.

Capstone in my mind draws you down the tree for something unique which encourages a different playstyle.

Best of the Best encourages slow and tall.  It of course works with other fleet compositions, but from a reward perspective, you get the most benefit for the least work if you're running something like five 40 DP capitals, to minimize story point costs, while also fitting under the 200 DP deployment limit, and thus doesn't need the support ships to grab comm relays or other locations quickly.

Support Doctrine encourages wide, reaching the ship cap, which means low average DP, which in turn means things like a lot of frigates and destroyers.  Such a fleet doesn't really need the bonus deployment DP at the start, since it has options for fast captures.  It also saves significantly on story points given you don't need to hire mercenaries, or mentor extra officers, or put a 3rd s-mod on the ships, although you do tend to want to put 2 s-mods on the larger number of ships.

Both of those feel like capstones since they draw you towards different fleet builds.  Now we can argue the effectiveness, their actual and perceived power levels, of the skills themselves but I wouldn't want to see them moved or what kind of fleet they encourage changed.

As for Derelict operations, it is admittedly a late game skill, with very little benefit before you hit the 240 DP deployment cap, but it is the single largest buff to a 340+ DP fleet with 5 d-mods each.  Paying only 70% of the DP to deploy is huge.  It is not quite for every 2 enemy ships on the field, you have 3 of the same class, but with d-mods.  Perhaps that is niche, but I think that is encouraging a different playstyle, as I think a capstone should.

[Nettle]

You can reassign your skills every other battle, let alone switch BOTB for Support Doctrine or Officer Training/Cyber Augs for anything else after you are done with S-mods/levelling your underlings. This is tedious but "optimal" approach to juicing every last drop out of player skills if you feel like you really have to.

[Megas]

Swapping out BOTB for anything else when a bunch of ships already have third s-mods means those excess s-mods disappear without refund.  It is a huge story point cost to reinstall them back in when reassigning another time back for BOTB.

And frequent respec means less story points to indulge in things that cost 2^n SP to get.

[Nettle]

Swapping out BOTB for anything else when a bunch of ships already have third s-mods means those excess s-mods disappear without refund.  It is a huge story point cost to reinstall them back in when reassigning another time back for BOTB.

You are right, it was a terrible suggestion on my part to reassign BOTB.

[eert5rty7u8i9i7u6yrewqdef]

Spoiler

The most effective Officer Managment fleet loadout is the following.
5 combat skills, 4 + capstone. 6 leadership skills, three tier 1+ both tier 2 + BOTB. 3 technology skills, with the final being cybernetic Augmentation.
This leaves over exactly 1 skill point. If the player's ship needs Ordnance Expertise or Polarized Armor for the build to work, then the build can't work. If they don't need it, then they can grab another skill from the other skill branches, which will typically be Flux Regulation.
This gives 11 level 6 4 elite skill officers with three built in hullmod ships with one officer having the best piloting possible, which is the optimum loadout for Officer Managment.

An alternative to this is to drop the required combat skills for the capstone down to 3 from 4, or count tech and industry combat skills towards the combat capstone.

This is also why support Doctrine sees so little use, as it directly competes with BOTB, which is just flat out better, or you have to give up skills elsewhere. Which means OM fleets are always going to be better than SD fleets.

Likewise, don't even get me started on just how much of an ineffective meme Derelict Operations is outside of niche low DP builds.

Out of curiosity, why not just respec and take the skill point out of officer management, turn the 2 extra officers into mercenaries, spend a couple story points to keep them on every few years (just throw it on the pile of 88+ points already spent - 10 for mentoring, 40 for officer elite skills, 33 for triple s-mod ships, and 5 for elite personal combat skills) and take Ordinance Expertise anyways?  I wouldn't really call officer management a capstone, given its benefit can be trivially duplicated with a minor story point expenditure already.

Capstone in my mind draws you down the tree for something unique which encourages a different playstyle.

Best of the Best encourages slow and tall.  It of course works with other fleet compositions, but from a reward perspective, you get the most benefit for the least work if you're running something like five 40 DP capitals, to minimize story point costs, while also fitting under the 200 DP deployment limit, and thus doesn't need the support ships to grab comm relays or other locations quickly.

Support Doctrine encourages wide, reaching the ship cap, which means low average DP, which in turn means things like a lot of frigates and destroyers.  Such a fleet doesn't really need the bonus deployment DP at the start, since it has options for fast captures.  It also saves significantly on story points given you don't need to hire mercenaries, or mentor extra officers, or put a 3rd s-mod on the ships, although you do tend to want to put 2 s-mods on the larger number of ships.

Both of those feel like capstones since they draw you towards different fleet builds.  Now we can argue the effectiveness, their actual and perceived power levels, of the skills themselves but I wouldn't want to see them moved or what kind of fleet they encourage changed.

As for Derelict operations, it is admittedly a late game skill, with very little benefit before you hit the 240 DP deployment cap, but it is the single largest buff to a 340+ DP fleet with 5 d-mods each.  Paying only 70% of the DP to deploy is huge.  It is not quite for every 2 enemy ships on the field, you have 3 of the same class, but with d-mods.  Perhaps that is niche, but I think that is encouraging a different playstyle, as I think a capstone should.

[close]

For the first question, mercenaries are a repeated skill point investment, and I frequently need those points elsewhere, even when I'm grinding ordos for skill points. Likewise, I frequently use 1 mercenary on a civilian grade hull ship to act as a reinforcement. What that ship is depends on the run.

For BOTB, you need the 240 DP limit for fighting ~1,000,000 bounties and multiple ordos. The exception is five capital fleets specifically designed to fight at 200DP. Even then you can only fight two ordos max, or you need auxiliary ships to cap points.

Can a support doctrine ship handle double its DP in everything? As that is my requirement for good loadouts for OM fleets. From everything I've seen, the answer is no, losing the third s-mod, or paying 8 skill points kills fleet effectiveness.

Here we go.
DO costs five skill points, while this is fine for a capstone, and it is a capstone, but it is locked behind 4 skills, only two of which may be useful for a rather limited number of builds. While yes 340 DP deployed all at once is huge, it weakens the ships massively to the point where it can't handle 240 DP or more of enemy ships that have level 6+ officers and three S-mods, i.e. a ~1,000,000 bounty.
Which means on average you lose three skill points for it, in return for a fleet that is far weaker than SD or OM.
It's not worth it unless you are using 1 or 2 ships for niche story point farming builds.

[SCC]

Gunnery Implants, Energy Weapon Mastery, Ordnance Expertise, and Polarized Armor all need to be added to Teir 1 so Players that pilot their flagship don't have to waste a skill point on something they don't need.

You can already take other tier 1 skills to skip those.

About Support Doctrine, I think its biggest issue is that you start with 8 officers. You can avoid putting your officers on your biggest ships where they will have the most impact, but SD is not a good enough reason to do so. Your average officered ship only needs to be of 15 DP to comprise half of your force at max deployment cap of 240. If you use stronger ships, don't start with 240 DPs or have more officers, there's even less of a reason to use SD.