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Author Topic: On SO Eradicators  (Read 2983 times)

Nettle

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Re: On SO Eradicators
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2023, 01:47:38 PM »

To basically summarize SO Eradicators are meant to break battle lines, rush snipers, and quickly kill most frigates and destroyers.
Only High-Tech frigates and destroyers are fast enough to kite them for a one vs one fight. So, you need to invest in more HT small ships, or invest in cruisers set up to brawl.

Omen, my beloved...
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MikeMyers111

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Re: On SO Eradicators
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2023, 06:53:44 PM »

SO Aurora with an aggressive or reckless officer with a good build. It's not even close. Thankfully you'll never encounter it due to the AI never using SO Aurora builds, or at least none that I can remember.

What build do you use? I've never seen the AI do all that well with an aroura, no matter the build. As far as I can tell, the ship is terminally dependent on the ability to use a very limited missile supply wisely, or to effectively flank and exploit openings with a bunch of AM blasters, and the AI struggles with both of those things.
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Sendrien

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Re: On SO Eradicators
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2023, 03:28:56 PM »

The Ziggurat also seems to counter SO Eradicators quite well, and can be obtained quite quickly in each playthrough.
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Siffrin

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Re: On SO Eradicators
« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2023, 07:15:28 PM »

The Ziggurat also seems to counter SO Eradicators quite well, and can be obtained quite quickly in each playthrough.
I mean... it counters everything but yeah with a Falcon (P) and 4 prox charges you can easily get it.
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Gods most reckless Odyssey captain.

smithney

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Re: On SO Eradicators
« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2023, 11:35:35 PM »

I just wanted to chime in that in terms of foe variety, Eradicators are a godsend. How they improve the PL encounters has already been mentioned by Thaago, but before that they made midgame Pirates actually threatening again as punch-down bullies. And the vanilla ones are the Church cruiser to look out for!
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Daynen

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Re: On SO Eradicators
« Reply #20 on: September 12, 2023, 10:47:01 PM »

The problem with pathers is that unlike the player, they don't give two thirds of a whole crap about losses.  You do.  They can absolutely afford to make every single ship SO and suicide bomb you because they suffer no consequences for losing.  The advantage is that, should the need arise, you can run out their PPT quite easily and watch them flop and flounder as their ships become dead weight.

But if you think they're scary now, try the luddic enhancement mods.  Their fuel tankers become actual, LITERAL suicide bomber ships.  There are few things that will put you on edge faster than seeing a Prometheus IED ship barreling towards you.

Good times!
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MikeMyers111

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Re: On SO Eradicators
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2023, 04:39:22 PM »

The problem with pathers is that unlike the player, they don't give two thirds of a whole crap about losses.  You do.  They can absolutely afford to make every single ship SO and suicide bomb you because they suffer no consequences for losing. 

This is the key asymmetry in any game - very noticeable for the League in particular, with its DEMs. In player hands, they're known for being pretty unremarkable, since ammo runs out quickly and they don't do that much damage. In AI hands, the ability to deal frontloaded, hard-to-dodge damage makes them more of a threat than almost any other kind of missile, in most situations. SO is powerful in AI hands for similar reasons.

In the opposite direction, things like Arouras, Odysseys, Reaper missiles, and (counterintuitively) SO and UI are much more effective in player hands than they are when used by the AI, because they open up a vast array of possibilities that only a human can sort through and exploit reliably.

I like that the game sort of runs with this, with the Odyssey being talked about as a Zumwalt-esque "master of none" ship that nobody really uses, in-universe, with the difficulty of using it right being integrated with the setting. Similarly, SO builds, despite their effectiveness, being restricted to religious fanatics, since nobody else is willing to apply the calculus inherent in the statement "If we rush the enemy with everything I have at the start of an engagement, most of us and all of them will die". Continuing with this trend, it could be interesting for the League to make "casualty-averse shock-and-awe enthusiasts" their hat, in keeping with their laissez faire every man for himself ethos (which doesn't mesh well with a casualty-intensive "slug it out" doctrine like the Hegemony, Diktat, and Church have), and retreat ships that run out of missiles, bringing in new ones to replace them where possible, making it feel more like the upsides and downsides of their equipment are a conscious choice.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2023, 04:43:40 PM by MikeMyers111 »
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Nettle

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Re: On SO Eradicators
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2023, 06:06:37 PM »

This is the key asymmetry in any game - very noticeable for the League in particular, with its DEMs. In player hands, they're known for being pretty unremarkable, since ammo runs out quickly and they don't do that much damage. In AI hands, the ability to deal frontloaded, hard-to-dodge damage makes them more of a threat than almost any other kind of missile, in most situations. SO is powerful in AI hands for similar reasons.

Doesn't seem to be related. All your deployed ships but one at a time are also in AI hands, and you can also equip every single space-worthy pile of metal in your fleet with a DEM like League, or with SO and reckless officer like LP. But unlike AI fleets you will have to suffer whatever logistical consequences your loadouts will result in. This approach of not simulating entire logistical chains for AI parties is indeed not uncommon in sandbox games with party management elements, especially if its exclusively single-player experience, I don't personally consider it a problem.
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Doctorhealsgood

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Re: On SO Eradicators
« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2023, 08:03:45 AM »

*Picks derelict contigent*
Guys i did it i solved the loss issue
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Quote from: Doctorhealsgood
Sometimes i feel like my brain has been hit by salamanders not gonna lie.

Amoebka

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Re: On SO Eradicators
« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2023, 08:12:05 AM »

Continuing with this trend, it could be interesting for the League to make "casualty-averse shock-and-awe enthusiasts" their hat, in keeping with their laissez faire every man for himself ethos
This is NOT League's ideology at all. Individual planets get to manage themselves with minimal (allegedly) intervention from Kazeron. Most of them are dictatorships, oligarchies, monarchies, or other forms of societies that don't respect individual freedoms.
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MikeMyers111

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Re: On SO Eradicators
« Reply #25 on: September 14, 2023, 02:00:09 PM »

Continuing with this trend, it could be interesting for the League to make "casualty-averse shock-and-awe enthusiasts" their hat, in keeping with their laissez faire every man for himself ethos
This is NOT League's ideology at all. Individual planets get to manage themselves with minimal (allegedly) intervention from Kazeron. Most of them are dictatorships, oligarchies, monarchies, or other forms of societies that don't respect individual freedoms.

The League, at present, definitely gets painted as bad guys and hypocrites in the story, but the flavor text surrounding their markets indicates that, at least internally, they present themselves as very free, non-homogeneous, and individualistic. I think the intent is for there to be a twist, where they initially look like the good guys fighting for freedom, but are secretly just as bad - right now we just see the second part, with the first being found in various flavor materials. Aesthetically, they do the things you'd expect the good guys to do - long-ranged missiles, faster, lighter ships, and heavy use of fighters.



More on the point, what do people think of giving SO eradicators a shield? The unshielded build feels very weak, especially in pirate fleets where there aren't enough aggressive SO ships to make critical mass. It might not be as aggressive, but I think it would fare somewhat better in combat. More cautiously, removing the overdriven build from the pirates' roster might help their fleets synergize better.
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Nettle

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Re: On SO Eradicators
« Reply #26 on: September 14, 2023, 02:35:38 PM »

The League, at present, definitely gets painted as bad guys and hypocrites in the story, but the flavor text surrounding their markets indicates that, at least internally, they present themselves as very free, non-homogeneous, and individualistic. I think the intent is for there to be a twist, where they initially look like the good guys fighting for freedom, but are secretly just as bad - right now we just see the second part, with the first being found in various flavor materials. Aesthetically, they do the things you'd expect the good guys to do - long-ranged missiles, faster, lighter ships, and heavy use of fighters.

Doesn't seem to me like they are painted as anything but another faction (although less unified) furthering their own interests, no good and evil in Persean Sector, just different shades of gray.
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TheLaughingDead

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Re: On SO Eradicators
« Reply #27 on: September 14, 2023, 04:01:02 PM »

Continuing with this trend, it could be interesting for the League to make "casualty-averse shock-and-awe enthusiasts" their hat, in keeping with their laissez faire every man for himself ethos
This is NOT League's ideology at all. Individual planets get to manage themselves with minimal (allegedly) intervention from Kazeron. Most of them are dictatorships, oligarchies, monarchies, or other forms of societies that don't respect individual freedoms.

The League, at present, definitely gets painted as bad guys and hypocrites in the story, but the flavor text surrounding their markets indicates that, at least internally, they present themselves as very free, non-homogeneous, and individualistic. I think the intent is for there to be a twist, where they initially look like the good guys fighting for freedom, but are secretly just as bad - right now we just see the second part, with the first being found in various flavor materials. Aesthetically, they do the things you'd expect the good guys to do - long-ranged missiles, faster, lighter ships, and heavy use of fighters.
I don't really view long-range missiles, faster + lighter ships, or heavy use of fighters as having anything to do with being a good or bad guy?
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MikeMyers111

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Re: On SO Eradicators
« Reply #28 on: September 14, 2023, 05:43:14 PM »

I don't really view long-range missiles, faster + lighter ships, or heavy use of fighters as having anything to do with being a good or bad guy?

General gameplay trope - the guys with ranged weapons and more casualty-averse tactics tend to be the good guys, and vice verso for the bad guys. As for fighters, it's sort of codified by star wars: if a space battle consists of a bunch of fighters and carriers on one side, and a bunch of large warships on the other, then the first group will usually be the side the heroes are on.
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Nettle

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Re: On SO Eradicators
« Reply #29 on: September 14, 2023, 06:01:57 PM »

if a space battle consists of a bunch of fighters and carriers on one side, and a bunch of large warships on the other, then the first group will usually be the side the heroes are on.

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