Fractal Softworks Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: New music for Galatia Academy (06/12/24)

Pages: [1] 2 3

Author Topic: On SO Eradicators  (Read 3338 times)

Ronin

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 27
    • View Profile
On SO Eradicators
« on: September 06, 2023, 01:38:00 AM »

Surely I can't be the only one that's dead tired of dealing with these. I've always felt that Eradicators themselves have too much going for them; they have all the benefits of low tech and none of the weaknesses. They are also versatile and perform well with different loadouts. But the Pather SO Eradicators are just insanity to me, and they are common to boot. EMP won't always keep them at bay and it takes several reaper hits to take one down. They can often inflict expensive losses even if they die afterwards in situations where they were/should have been overwhelmed. Between the insane kinetic output and chainguns with ammo feeder that instantly shred light and medium targets, and a whopping FIVE torpedo mounts, it really feels like something needs to go.

I know that a large part of this frustration is because of SO itself, and the combination with reckless officers and a shield shunt, but they really are an outlier in performance by comparison - and by how much I fear them. If you see a Pather fleet with a couple of these and the danger rating is two, but in practice it's more like a three or even a four, then something is probably off. There aren't any other cruisers that demand the same kind special attention and evoke the same anxiety that I might randomly lose a ship, except for maybe Doom.

For those curious I don't have problems actually winning the fight (although I have had a couple of very early total wipes to general SO cheese by stumbling into a Pather system), but losing a Pilum Venture or two a couple months in the game for example, to these flying definitions of hamfistedness is expensive. Which are also my first and only losses in the run, and it has happened enough times exactly like this. The problem is that it is frustrating and not fun, regardless if the losses are only a dent in my overall progress. I play with Nex and have considered turning Pathers off altogether, which is not a good thing, and I really don't want to do that.
Logged

Grievous69

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 3012
    • View Profile
Re: On SO Eradicators
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2023, 01:39:44 AM »

Well hopefully the SO rework comes with the upcoming patch.
Logged
Please don't take me too seriously.

Nettle

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 659
  • making humorous maneuvers
    • View Profile
Re: On SO Eradicators
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2023, 04:59:01 AM »

I think Pathers are over-tuned in general, its the effectiveness of suicidal aggression combined with extreme edge SO gives in any flux war and endless barrage of missiles to boot, not just specific ships they field. And although when fighting LP the chances of overdriven Resistant Flux Conduits-Armored Weapon Mounts Eradicator with Polarized Armor officer on board running down your cruisers are never zero, they are pretty slim, so EMP as well as HE damage are pretty reliable here. I still dread every time I have to fight LP fleets though, there is very little to gain and everything to lose, its not like they are using some superb ships and weaponry or leave behind any highly desirable salvage to acquire.
Logged

Lawrence Master-blaster

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 691
    • View Profile
Re: On SO Eradicators
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2023, 05:21:50 AM »

Surely I can't be the only one that's dead tired of dealing with these. I've always felt that Eradicators themselves have too much going for them; they have all the benefits of low tech and none of the weaknesses.

The weaknesses of low tech are bad shields, bad flux and poor logi. Eradicators have all of those. Pather Eradicators don't even have SO built in, they pay full cost for it.

Quote
For those curious I don't have problems actually winning the fight (although I have had a couple of very early total wipes to general SO cheese by stumbling into a Pather system), but losing a Pilum Venture or two a couple months in the game for example

I think your problem is using Pilum Ventures, not enemy Eradicators...
Logged

Ronin

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 27
    • View Profile
Re: On SO Eradicators
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2023, 06:13:59 AM »

Surely I can't be the only one that's dead tired of dealing with these. I've always felt that Eradicators themselves have too much going for them; they have all the benefits of low tech and none of the weaknesses.

The weaknesses of low tech are bad shields, bad flux and poor logi. Eradicators have all of those. Pather Eradicators don't even have SO built in, they pay full cost for it.

Quote
For those curious I don't have problems actually winning the fight (although I have had a couple of very early total wipes to general SO cheese by stumbling into a Pather system), but losing a Pilum Venture or two a couple months in the game for example

I think your problem is using Pilum Ventures, not enemy Eradicators...

No, my problem is not using Pilum Ventures; if you have a few for exploration and need to pull them in to support your combat ships and give them the extra edge is works well until past mid game. I could have used another example like an Eagle, or Furies, they can be taken out all the same, but I guess it doesn't really matter to someone who cherry picked something out of my post just to attack it. As far as Eradicators go, they combine low tech cruiser armor with good mobility even without SO, and they are not sluggish enough to flank that easily. Not to mention they have the burn speed of a light cruiser and don't need to to have ADF built in, but they are NOT a light cruiser.
Logged

Vanshilar

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 644
    • View Profile
Re: On SO Eradicators
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2023, 06:52:50 AM »

No, my problem is not using Pilum Ventures; if you have a few for exploration and need to pull them in to support your combat ships and give them the extra edge is works well until past mid game. I could have used another example like an Eagle, or Furies, they can be taken out all the same, but I guess it doesn't really matter to someone who cherry picked something out of my post just to attack it. As far as Eradicators go, they combine low tech cruiser armor with good mobility even without SO, and they are not sluggish enough to flank that easily. Not to mention they have the burn speed of a light cruiser and don't need to to have ADF built in, but they are NOT a light cruiser.

Eh it's not really cherry-picking when Pilum Ventures is the only thing you mentioned about your fleet composition. If you struggle with SO Eradicators, then it's almost certainly due to how you laid out your fleet. Putting SO on Eradicators actually makes them weaker then non-SO versions, which is easy enough to see in sim (i.e. test out SO vs non-SO Eradicators in sim) or in fleet battles or whatever. That they have Shield Shunt is a big hint in how to handle them; you won't need any kinetics so put more anti-armor and anti-hull weapons on your ships for them.

I haven't had any issues with LP fleets, in fact they're my go-to in the early game as a good source of LP Brawlers which are good for the early- and mid-game before I make my death fleet.
Logged

SafariJohn

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 3035
    • View Profile
Re: On SO Eradicators
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2023, 06:58:22 AM »

I think you are severely underestimating the effect of good loadouts vs bad loadouts. Stock SO Eradicators don't have shields, so they are extremely vulnerable to EMP and HE damage. Ion Pulsers, High Intensity Lasers, Heavy Maulers, Hellbores, and any HE missile once their weapons are EMPed will all wreck them.

Ninja'd by Vanshilar
Logged

Ronin

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 27
    • View Profile
Re: On SO Eradicators
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2023, 07:16:41 AM »

No, my problem is not using Pilum Ventures; if you have a few for exploration and need to pull them in to support your combat ships and give them the extra edge is works well until past mid game. I could have used another example like an Eagle, or Furies, they can be taken out all the same, but I guess it doesn't really matter to someone who cherry picked something out of my post just to attack it. As far as Eradicators go, they combine low tech cruiser armor with good mobility even without SO, and they are not sluggish enough to flank that easily. Not to mention they have the burn speed of a light cruiser and don't need to to have ADF built in, but they are NOT a light cruiser.

Eh it's not really cherry-picking when Pilum Ventures is the only thing you mentioned about your fleet composition. If you struggle with SO Eradicators, then it's almost certainly due to how you laid out your fleet. Putting SO on Eradicators actually makes them weaker then non-SO versions, which is easy enough to see in sim (i.e. test out SO vs non-SO Eradicators in sim) or in fleet battles or whatever. That they have Shield Shunt is a big hint in how to handle them; you won't need any kinetics so put more anti-armor and anti-hull weapons on your ships for them.

I haven't had any issues with LP fleets, in fact they're my go-to in the early game as a good source of LP Brawlers which are good for the early- and mid-game before I make my death fleet.

I specifically said that they were an example, there is no need to make wild assumptions about my fleet composition unless you're just trying to facilitate a pointless argument. I also never said anything about struggling, but of course someone who wants to argue is going to make that assumption. I specifically said things like "first and only losses" to describe that I rarely even suffer losses in combat. I even anticipated someone saying about their Shield Shunt, and mentioned how EMP and Torpedoes are NOT foolproof, didn't read that? More anti armor guns doesn't matter that much and will hinder you against other opponents, only tools that can stop them faster than they can kill one of your ships when they get in your face.

I could care less about their Brawlers, using SO ceased being fun a long time ago.
Logged

Vanshilar

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 644
    • View Profile
Re: On SO Eradicators
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2023, 08:32:29 AM »

I specifically said that they were an example, there is no need to make wild assumptions about my fleet composition unless you're just trying to facilitate a pointless argument. I also never said anything about struggling, but of course someone who wants to argue is going to make that assumption.

So you create a thread complaining about SO Eradicators, saying things like "Pather SO Eradicators are just insanity to me" and "they really are an outlier in performance by comparison - and by how much I fear them", but now you're saying you don't really have trouble with them when people point out that they're not that hard? Then why make the thread?

The reason why people are pointing out about your fleet composition is that if you're having trouble with any enemy fleet, the most likely culprit is how you set up your own fleet, i.e. the mix of ships you have, their weapons, hullmods, and officers, etc. So when giving feedback like this, your own fleet composition is very important to provide, and the only hint you've given is that they took out some Pilum Ventures, which are very much not suited for this. As I said, putting SO on Eradicators actually makes them worse and easier to kill, especially with shield shunt. These fleets are really there as warmup fleets to help the player learn about combat and are not really meant to be difficult obstacles.
Logged

Ronin

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 27
    • View Profile
Re: On SO Eradicators
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2023, 09:04:21 AM »

I specifically said that they were an example, there is no need to make wild assumptions about my fleet composition unless you're just trying to facilitate a pointless argument. I also never said anything about struggling, but of course someone who wants to argue is going to make that assumption.

So you create a thread complaining about SO Eradicators, saying things like "Pather SO Eradicators are just insanity to me" and "they really are an outlier in performance by comparison - and by how much I fear them", but now you're saying you don't really have trouble with them when people point out that they're not that hard? Then why make the thread?

The reason why people are pointing out about your fleet composition is that if you're having trouble with any enemy fleet, the most likely culprit is how you set up your own fleet, i.e. the mix of ships you have, their weapons, hullmods, and officers, etc. So when giving feedback like this, your own fleet composition is very important to provide, and the only hint you've given is that they took out some Pilum Ventures, which are very much not suited for this. As I said, putting SO on Eradicators actually makes them worse and easier to kill, especially with shield shunt. These fleets are really there as warmup fleets to help the player learn about combat and are not really meant to be difficult obstacles.

I don't recall ever losing a ship to a standard Eradicator. All I said was that SO Eradicators are an outlier in my experience. I highlighted why and how it is just a bad combination that is not fun to deal with. I never said anything about struggling (second time I'm say these exact words). Everything else is just supposition, and if I didn't specify, there is a little thing called asking. If you cared to bring anything besides criticism about something that you assumed.

I would like to see what other people think about this subject and if you disagree you can do so without being snide, or without behaving like a vulture. Or perhaps to come a conclusion through basic communication instead of jumping to conclusions.
Logged

CrashToDesktop

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 3876
  • Quartermaster
    • View Profile
Re: On SO Eradicators
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2023, 01:09:37 PM »

I don't think SO by itself makes the overdriven Eradicators so overwhelming, I think it's a combination of SO and Shield Shunt. Shield Shunt cranks the AI's aggressiveness to 11 and actually allows the ship to take advantage of all the benefits of SO. If it has a shield, even with SO, it would try to back off and bleed flux in an effort of self-preservation, but with Shield Shunt it just gets in your face and unloads, only backing off after it sustains extreme damage or it's weapons get taken offline, both made more difficult by Shield Shunt and AWM.
Logged
Quote from: Trylobot
I am officially an epoch.
Quote from: Thaago
Note: please sacrifice your goats responsibly, look up the proper pronunciation of Alex's name. We wouldn't want some other project receiving mystic power.

BaBosa

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 445
    • View Profile
Re: On SO Eradicators
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2023, 09:30:44 PM »

I find with SO shunt eradicators that the problem is that your fleet tends to be built for anti shield kiting/sniping but that just doesn’t work against SO shunted eradicators. But once you add a bit more HE and missiles then they’re fine.
Logged

Thaago

  • Global Moderator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 7339
  • Harpoon Affectionado
    • View Profile
Re: On SO Eradicators
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2023, 11:32:51 PM »

The pather SO eradicators are by far the most dangerous pather ship, I agree, because they defeat the most common and intuitive way of dealing with the path: turtle up and don't let any one ship get singled out by a swarm of SO frigates. Any destroyer is powerful enough to stand off 2 path frigates if they are supported from getting swarmed by more, so its not hard to make a nice spiky shell that beats back the path and inflicts losses. The eradicators are powerful enough in terms of offense to punch a hole in the turtle's shell, and there are few ships below cruiser size that can deal with them 1 on 1 if caught (and even a cruiser can get absolutely mauled by one if the eradicator charges when the cruisers flux is already high).

That said, they are also one of the most vulnerable path ships to being hard-countered. With no shield they are bait for any kind of HE missile swarm, torpedo barrage, or EMP harassment. They are also much more vulnerable to hunter frigates than other path ships because they are, comparatively, slow. It might take a little bit, but an Omen or two with an AM blaster will handily kill an isolated eradicator.

Personally, I kind of like that the path has this dangerous ship I need to actually watch out for and actively pilot/command to deal with.
Logged

MikeMyers111

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 16
    • View Profile
Re: On SO Eradicators
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2023, 05:07:02 AM »

I've always thought that SO eradicators were a bit weak, especially considering that their build lacks a shield when keeping a shield up reliably is one of SO's key benefits. They can't punch-up very well, or even sideways, since every run on a ship that can reliably hit back inflicts permanent damage that they can't do anything about. Pathers can definitely pull some nasty tricks in early game, but that's mostly chalked up to the fact that a typical early game build is a handful of frigates and a cruiser, and relies on tying up the AI by exploiting its casualty-averseness, and the Pathers don't fall for that strategy.
Logged

eert5rty7u8i9i7u6yrewqdef

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 428
    • View Profile
Re: On SO Eradicators
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2023, 01:17:53 PM »

To basically summarize SO Eradicators are meant to break battle lines, rush snipers, and quickly kill most frigates and destroyers.
Only High-Tech frigates and destroyers are fast enough to kite them for a one vs one fight. So, you need to invest in more HT small ships, or invest in cruisers set up to brawl.

Vanguards concern me way more, they're undying missile boats typically loaded with reapers.

Quote
There aren't any other cruisers that demand the same kind special attention and evoke the same anxiety that I might randomly lose a ship, except for maybe Doom.
SO Aurora with an aggressive or reckless officer with a good build. It's not even close. Thankfully you'll never encounter it due to the AI never using SO Aurora builds, or at least none that I can remember.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3