Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Igncom1]

A wing of disposable hammerheads or sunders can easily support the flanks of a capital ships fight, and slap away most enemy frigates contesting the capture points.

SO Brawler TT can do the same job for 5DP and not die in the process.

SO anything is generally stronger then anything without it.

[Grievous69]

I honestly don't think game mechanics gimp destroyers, frigates are in that regard even worse yet they're often used in fights, explain that. No amount of logistics fiddling will change much as it's not about earning slightly more credits. It's about DP efficiency and your ships being reliable.

[CapnHector]

If we're not doing monofleets (so going outside my playstyle, but) it seems you could leverage the "most X for your DP" aspect of destroyers in a mixed fleet. Want fighters, then you will get most per DP from Condor. Artillery, Enforcer is the most HVD/Mauler per DP and a ton of missiles. This is going to need either micro or loss acceptance though because survivability is bad if caught out of position.

No experience with it though.

[Lawrence Master-blaster]

I honestly don't think game mechanics gimp destroyers, frigates are in that regard even worse yet they're often used in fights, explain that.

Sure. Even if a frigate does literally nothing to the enemy, it's still a distraction that when built properly is almost impossible to kill. It gives your fleet "width" as they say, preventing you getting swarmed and surrounded while your capitals/cruisers do the job. Note how in CapnHector videos he goes as far as S-modding Advanced Turret Gyros because being outnumbered is such a threat, well, if you're not doing a 5-ship challenge then frigates in your fleet prevent exactly this kind of thing from happening.

Destroyers can't do this because they're much slower and much larger targets. Frigates can often physically move out of the way of incoming fire, destroyers have shield bubbles almost the size of cruisers. So destroyers can't easily disengage because they're too slow, they can't tank well because they can't dodge incoming fire and still don't have enough EHP the way some cruisers do, and usually they can't do a lot of damage either because everything larger usually outranges them by quite a bit.

(Incidentally, if I were to try and fix destroyers, I would probably increase the range bonus they get from ITU from 20% to 30% or even 40%, equal to cruisers)

[Grievous69]

(Incidentally, if I were to try and fix destroyers, I would probably increase the range bonus they get from ITU from 20% to 30% or even 40%, equal to cruisers)

That is also an interesting idea, just not sure if that would make for easy cheese spam strats.

[Alex]

... hmm, this is giving me some ideas for bringing back "Escort Package" with (different!) bonuses based on proximity to a larger ship.

[eert5rty7u8i9i7u6yrewqdef]

Each class of ship should maintain a unique role at all stages in the game. Destroyers currently do not, and the problem is exacerbated in the endgame.

Frigates have the mobility to capture strategic locations as well as harass slower ships. When well-built, they don't have problems surviving and contributing in a large endgame battle.

Cruisers have the durability or long range of capital ships, and sometimes have mobility exceeding that of destroyers.

Capitals, with their durability, range and firepower, obviously have a role in endgame fleet encounters.

Which leaves the destroyer in a very weird spot. If you need mobility, you'd use a frigate for less DP. If you need firepower and range, you'd use a cruiser for slightly more DP, but get a whole lot more durability against tough enemies. The only destroyer that brings something completely unique to the table is the Harbinger, with its ability to leave an enemy ship defenceless for a tiny window. So currently, the best use for a destroyer is to bully frigates in the early game, and even that role is heavily contested by the Pirate Falcon.

I'd love to see destroyers carve out a unique role for themselves, being able to contribute to endgame encounters instead of being a combination of a frigate and a cruiser, while in reality being a worse version of both.

As a thought experiment, think about going up against various endgame fleets. Now, think of any destroyers you'd want in your fleet that you would not prefer having either frigates or cruisers filling that role. For me, I come up blank, except for the Harbinger, in select cases.

I realize this opinion is likely controversial, so if I'm missing something, I'd love to hear your thoughts and reasoning!

System expertise Medusa with one heavy blaster, one ir autolance, and two railguns. If you want the full build let me know, but currently I'm using it for Ordo hunting alongside my Odysseys and Scarabs. It has currently fought without damage vs two simultaneous Giga Ordos, they were only 779 DP but had two Radiants and three Novas.
I lost two Scarabs that fight to a missile apex because the engage order is buggy and they fluxed themselves our rather than retreating because of the order. However, a Medusa was also under that order and did not take damage despite not being able to retreat.

[Igncom1]

When I usually see people talking about frigates being good or better then destroyers, 90% of the time it's a high tech frigate.

[Candesce]

... hmm, this is giving me some ideas for bringing back "Escort Package" with (different!) bonuses based on proximity to a larger ship.

Hopefully with some helpful tags for the AI?

That does sound useful.

[eert5rty7u8i9i7u6yrewqdef]

When I usually see people talking about frigates being good or better then destroyers, 90% of the time it's a high tech frigate.

That's because the other tech's frigates are kept in a supporting role, whereas high tech are specifically designed to operate in an offensive capacity.
You pay for what you get, as all the HT frigates that fill this scheme cost as much as a light destroyer or more.

People do talk about the other techs frigates being good, mostly midline, they just operate in a passive role of capture points and stall enemy ships. Notable examples are the immortal monitor, escort anti-fighter/frigate defense Centurion, and support artillery Brawler. Those are the popular one's, as this recent update has shown, the Vigilance has gotten better with access to gazers and gorgons. Low tech really only has the lasher for long term support frigates, as everything else is either unshielded or part cargo ship.

[CapnHector]

Something like this may not be entirely dumb so long as you micro it correctly (replacing 1 Onslaught for 4 Condors). I was at least able to keep the formation up for quite a time.



It was not efficient though, by the time the first Condor died - they made it through the frigates of a 6 Ordo - they had done a total of about 60 DP worth of damage total to an Onslaught's about 200 DP. However, this was a 2x Thunder build with linked Breach and Mining Laser. Optimizing it you might be able to get more out of it. Now this is 40 DP for 8 decks while for an Astral you would pay 50 DP for 6 decks. Admittedly if you go for the Astral you get an extra battlecarrier to go with it rather than just the decks, but hey... these can bring more ECM and Nav Relays I guess.

[crvt]

Yeah. I tried exactly this thing, except with Executors, swapping one for Condors.
The idea was that I'd be able to secure a location with each executor having full uptime on the incoming ships, and instead of having one stuck behind the line unable to fire(and for the most part being useful for swapping with a fluxed ship), I'd have full uptime from Condors with large range.
And the fighters would help murder frigates early on.

In theory. Unfortunately, after trying nearly every combination of fighter loadout, they just weren't doing the damage compared to having another Executor that's firing half the time, despite being in a position where they're safe and the enemy is in range

[CapnHector]

Did you try Flashes?

2x Flash could in fact keep up with an Onslaught for the 4 Condors, but unfortunately runs out of replacement rate. Could go Flash Warthog.

[Thaago]

Tldr; destroyers are good 'infantry' style ships with nice offensively oriented stats, but have been left behind by the skill system, emergence of counters, and lack of elite ships.

So as a preface, I've used destroyers a lot, and they used to be my favorite ship type: my 'standard' progression would be to go straight from a destroyer group to a mixed destroyer + capital force with maybe some specialist cruisers like gryphons or herons, but otherwise I didn't consider basically any cruiser worth using instead of destroyers. I would still say they are my most used ship type for the majority of the game, but that's mainly because I don't spend all that long in what is considered 'endgame'

Destroyers:

• Have lots of firepower per DP. Destroyers pack more dissipation/guns/missiles/fighter bays, and offensive systems to back them up, than any other class save maybe capitals.
• Depends a bit on which ship, but have good defenses per DP. Sunders are an exception of course, but Enforcers are bricks, Medusas have great shields (and so do Shrikes actually, but they are def 'light' destroyers and the narrow arcs are a bit of an issue), and even the Hammerhead has a decent shield/armor combo. The issue is that, unlike firepower, these decent defenses can be isolated and overcome if a bigger ship jumps them...
• Are flexible in how they can be built. Going for shorter ranged, higher damage guns lets them quickly kill frigates (rather than just zone them out) and gang up to overwhelm larger ships, while using 'artillery' style builds (Grav/Ion/HIL sunder, HVD/Mauler Hammerhead etc) lets them hang out next to larger ships and still have the range to hit other large ships (1200 range HVD is longer ranged than 800 base range cruisers (1120 post ITU) and near 900 base cruisers (1260). A 1400 range sunder is fighting at cap ship ranges.). I think that these artillery style ships are somewhat unique to destroyers.
  
• Have a good balance of range and speed vs nearly every ship... except those that have come out recently. There have been a lot of ships perfectly suited to hunting destroyers that have come in the last few updates. All of the fast cruisers and capitals that have burst mobility systems to get in range, negating the fact that destroyers have good defenses per DP by momentarily isolating the destroyers to pummel just one. Destroyers used to be fast enough to run from things they couldn't kill, but then a whole lot of destroyer hunters showed up!
• There are no elite destroyers (save the Harbinger) and no specialist destroyers either (save condor/drover, but those are simply outclassed by the Heron). This is contrasted with frigates where a lot of the useful endgame ships are either specialists (omen for disabling/zone anti-missile, monitor for disabling the enemy AI) or elite (LP Brawler, tempest, hyperion, scarab, afflictor, etc). Destroyers are in the same performance category as lashers and wolves: decent ships that are a big step up over converted civilian ships, but worse than the elite ships.
• Officers are limited, and it can be hard to justify putting one on a destroyer in the endgame. Not when elite frigates exist who give more ECCM, more Nav bonus, more damage boost from wolfpack, all while being a similar DP and more survivable vs mobility based offense.

If going for analogies as to what destroyers would look like if they were similar to the elite frigates people use endgame:
A 12 DP destroyer with a .6 shield, 130 speed, and 4 built in ion beams that fire over friendly ships and consume negligible flux. A single medium missile and 1 medium energy, 3 small energies. (omen analog tooled to more ship disabling rather than anti-missile/fighter)
A 12 DP fortress shield ship with enhanced flux stats and armor. I'm not even going to type more about this, it's making me want to throw up.
A 16 DP midline ship with 130 speed, two built in sarissa wings, 2 small missiles, 4 medium ballistics or combo of ballistics to similar weight. Ship system does something cool to the fighters (maybe breaks the rules of sarissa and send them to orbit the enemy ship plinking away?).
A 16 DP low tech ship with damper field instead of shields, 3 medium missile mounts, 1250 armor, and a giant pile of small kinetic mounts (maybe a few medium kinetics too). Very similar to an eradicator with permanently no shields, only meaner and cheaper.
A ship with a system as powerful as the time dilator on a scarab at 16 DP.
A 30 DP teleporting mini-radiant that for some reason is classified as a destroyer.
A hammerhead that got free SO and is 12 DP instead of 10 DP. Except that it already had accelerated ammo feeder, so how about it gets... ultra ammo feeder that does even more damage? LP Brawler analog.

Ok I got less creative towards the end there. But the point is that none of those ships exist. Some of them are similar to the fast cruisers that have come out and basically taken those roles.

Skills are also not good for destroyers. Despite the elite frigates being in the same power band as destroyers, officers in them get better damage bonuses against more ships (20% vs destroyers+ instead of 10% vs cruisers+), give more fleet wide bonuses to ECM/Nav, and they take less damage from target analysis. The wolfpack in particular is VERY painful because it kneecaps desire to put officers in destroyers (ECM rides on the officer too, but its a more minor issue). If I'm going to be putting an officer on a 10 DP ship... why not put it on an 8DP ship that will get larger bonuses and benefits more? Some of the best frigates also have great ship systems that ramp up with a system expertise officer: omen, afflictor, and scarab (especially scarab!) all come to mind. Destroyers have overall nice systems, but possibly with the exception of the Medusa none get so large a bonus as the frigates. (Side note: Omens get more range from system expertise, in addition to activating it more frequently. It is... effective.)

Fuel is a big strike against destroyers compared to elite frigates AND cruisers. For frigates, it is 1 f/ly for 6/8 DP compared to 2 f/ly for 9-12 DP (and enforcer at 3 f/ly. Poor enforcer); 2/3 the fuel consumption of the 3 fuel cruisers (eagle, heron, gryphon) despite being 1/2 the DP, so overall 1/3 less efficient per DP. The Dominator, a heavy cruiser in the "fuel guzzler" family, has the same fuel/DP as a Hammherhead, and is nearly TWICE as fuel efficient as enforcers (5 f/ly for 25 dp vs 9 f/ly for 27 DP (3 enforcers)).

Support Doctrine on the other hand is really nice for destroyers: solid bonuses across the board, and the damage control in particular is really good for them as compared to frigates, as they have a lot more hull. I still use destroyers with SD in endgame, and have a good time, but I wish there was more use cases.

So, in terms of solutions: I would get rid of a lot of the 'scaling per ship class' modifiers in skills. They would work if the ship classes were distinct, but frigates slam right into destroyers in power. Maybe make them frigates and destroyers as one joint category, then cruisers, then capitals? I'm not sure what to do about the prevalence of destroyer-hunters. Those ships are fun to fight against, and its not really their fault that they are perfect counters for high offense/low defense ships of a smaller class.

[Draba]

(Incidentally, if I were to try and fix destroyers, I would probably increase the range bonus they get from ITU from 20% to 30% or even 40%, equal to cruisers)

I'm not sure what to do about the prevalence of destroyer-hunters. Those ships are fun to fight against, and its not really their fault that they are perfect counters for high offense/low defense ships of a smaller class.

Since they are significantly bigger targets than frigates and their mobility is closer to cruisers I also think the obvious way to make them more useful is increasing ITU boost.
Even Eagle with jets is plain faster than the Sunder/Hammerhead/Enforcer/Manticore, having to get so close when so many cruisers/capitals can just jump on and murder them is the main drawback.

The other main problem is officer-efficiency.
A few frigates are very nice for capturing and they give 6% CM boost a pop, paired with cruisers and capitals that can already easily reach the limit.
Increasing the base count to ~10 or reducing officer power to make them less "mandatory" would give more room to play around with 2 destroyers instead of 1 cruiser, .