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Author Topic: Built for Aggression: 5 Odyssey Battlecruisers vs 5 Remnant Ordos  (Read 2631 times)

CapnHector

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The Odyssey is a very interesting ship. Beautiful in design (though I wish I could have it in other colors), it is the ship that has a little bit of everything: fighters, missiles, firepower, agility, flux stats, built in ECCM and high resolution sensors. The only thing that seems to be lacking is the OP to take advantage of all of these. However...

https://youtu.be/WkGpvjDuxgE


Writeup:
I was fascinated by the Odyssey and inspired by a quote
Now, if there were some tactic that kept the Ody pack moving, rather than lining up with long-range weaponry like Executor or Legions, I bet that could really chew through a lot. Perhaps some sort of tactic where the pack circles the battlefield capturing points and picking off stragglers? Or even just an avoid order on their massive death ball. Two Ody at the top to pick off reinforcements?
But, it would probably take longer and be more order-intensive; would the Ody even have the PPT? Could it backpedal fast enough to avoid getting jumped by, say, a Nova and a Brilliant straying from objective? Can AI handle shields well enough to survive that kind of pressure? What if the two Ody at the top get pinched against the top wall by the death ball, or reinforcements come in while they are still at full flux? Seems iffy. And I don't think there is any mono-fleet non-Omega Ody build that could handle even five ordos in a line battle. The ship is made to move, darnit!

In other games, fleets that focus on firepower and speed at the expense of defense are my favorite thing. So why not here? It turns out that this was extremely difficult to make it work. First of all, the ship is nearly unusable with the current iteration of Plasma Burn, and Alex has already said he will change it for next version so friendly collisions do not cause Plasma Burn flameouts. See link for video - the ships will just spontaneously die. So after a few days of trying (and I really tried, and made it to the final Radiants, but oh is it unreliable) I decided to set collision flameout chance to 0 in miniburn.system. So, this is a slightly modded run. I don't consider the ship usable otherwise. When it no longer causes the ship to randomly suicide, though, Plasma Burn becomes a huge asset as you see in the video.

I tried many loadouts, including videoing combats using S-Exmags-2x APL-IRPL, Pilum loadouts, HSA+2x Tachyon+TL, Plasma + TL, different fighter setups including Warthog, Warthog+Flash, Broadsword+Flash, 2x Sarissa, and I think it took all of my gaming time for three days, but here it finally is, the best build I could come up with, and after having created it it is in fact very good; to my surprise I won this one on the first try. You need to really learn how to use this ship though: essentially the ship having no orders means Plasma Burn charges. Any orders turn them off or limit them. That is why I cancel the Eliminate on the Radiant: to make the ships more aggressive.

Enjoy the show! And oh, I know it's a very weak 5 Ordo. I think this could do more, but I don't know how much. It's not as strong as the others, but it's possibly the coolest, since this is the one where we outmaneuver rather than outgun the Remnants.

Build:


Fighters are 2x Talon.

DCR:

« Last Edit: July 27, 2023, 03:57:39 PM by CapnHector »
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5 ships vs 5 Ordos: Executor · Invictus · Paragon · Astral · Legion · Onslaught · Odyssey | Video LibraryHiruma Kai's Challenge

Genir

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Re: Built for Aggression: 5 Odyssey Battlecruisers vs 5 Remnant Ordos
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2023, 04:00:11 PM »

Nice!

I noticed you used the strategy of keeping a bunch of Apexes alive, so you don't have to face multiple Radiants at once. That's my favorite strategy! I always use frigates for that, but it seems Odysseys are agile enough to do the same.
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Thaago

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Re: Built for Aggression: 5 Odyssey Battlecruisers vs 5 Remnant Ordos
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2023, 04:20:21 PM »

I'm a big fan of the very simple double Plasma Odyssey as well. I tried a bunch of other things in my pirate playthrough and all seemed lackluster in comparison: the ship has the flux to run them, so why spend one of the limited S mod slots for the more efficient ex mag autopulse when plasmas have such better anti-armor performance and much better sustained DPS (even with the S mod). And considering that S modding mags means not S modding ITU, its more OP expensive as well by a little bit (40+25 vs 60).

I'm really shocked you are finding Talons to be the most effective fighter here. Just needed some, any, distraction, and had no spare OP for anything else? Same with the mining lasers :p

Quote
... essentially the ship having no orders means Plasma Burn charges. Any orders turn them off or limit them. That is why I cancel the Eliminate on the Radiant: to make the ships more aggressive....

Ooof, that really sucks. Did that come up when you were reporting the other issues to Alex? Cause I feel like that's a bug.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2023, 04:22:50 PM by Thaago »
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Hatter

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Re: Built for Aggression: 5 Odyssey Battlecruisers vs 5 Remnant Ordos
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2023, 04:28:43 PM »

Wow, I got here before you added it to your sig. It's impressive how much you do to control the AI! Talons are an interesting choice.

Quote
The Odyssey is a very interesting ship. Beautiful in design (though I wish I could have it in other colors)
What color would you want it?

« Last Edit: March 05, 2024, 02:36:41 PM by Hatter »
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CapnHector

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Re: Built for Aggression: 5 Odyssey Battlecruisers vs 5 Remnant Ordos
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2023, 04:42:17 PM »

Nice!

I noticed you used the strategy of keeping a bunch of Apexes alive, so you don't have to face multiple Radiants at once. That's my favorite strategy! I always use frigates for that, but it seems Odysseys are agile enough to do the same.

Thanks! Yeah, I think this is the only capital monofleet that can leverage this strategy! Good thing too, because unlike the other capitals an Odyssey can't 1v1 a Radiant, without missiles at least.

I'm a big fan of the very simple double Plasma Odyssey as well. I tried a bunch of other things in my pirate playthrough and all seemed lackluster in comparison: the ship has the flux to run them, so why spend one of the limited S mod slots for the more efficient ex mag autopulse when plasmas have such better anti-armor performance and much better sustained DPS (even with the S mod). And considering that S modding mags means not S modding ITU, its more OP expensive as well by a little bit (40+25 vs 60).

I'm really shocked you are finding Talons to be the most effective fighter here. Just needed some, any, distraction, and had no spare OP for anything else? Same with the mining lasers :p

Re: gun choice, it seems it's best for this ship to get most of its damage from just the two guns, and that means Plasma, since IR PL and HSA TL are both pretty unimpressive. Talons are by no means an effective fighter other than as a distraction (by DCR less than 20k damage in the whole fight per ship), but a distraction matters a lot and for 4 OP that is cheap damage. Now upgrading these to Broadswords might mean doubling the damage for quadruple the OP cost.

With the Autopulses I actually preferred Flash + Broadsword, but for the Plasma Odyssey you just want a ton of flux stats and everything non-essential has to go then. If you do get the flux stats, and you really do need this much, it's great though and doesn't miss the fighters.

For a fun trick that you can pull off for with an alterative Autopulse Laser loadout you can also try linking a Breach Pod with a Locust for an unusually deadly missile swarm that devastates frigates, and that was really impressive, but couldn't afford a Breach Pod in the empty slot either.

Quote
... essentially the ship having no orders means Plasma Burn charges. Any orders turn them off or limit them. That is why I cancel the Eliminate on the Radiant: to make the ships more aggressive....

Ooof, that really sucks. Did that come up when you were reporting the other issues to Alex? Cause I feel like that's a bug.

Might be worth bringing to Alex's attention yes. For the time being though the short of commanding this ship is that if you don't want it to Plasma Burn then always keep it under some order, and if you want it to Plasma Burn aggressively (which is great if you fix the ridiculous self-destruction of the unedited version) then have it under no orders at all.

Wow, I got here before you added it too your sig. It's impressive how much you do to control the AI! Talons are an interesting choice.

Quote
The Odyssey is a very interesting ship. Beautiful in design (though I wish I could have it in other colors)
What color would you want it?

Thanks! This one took practice learning how this ship works. I would want this one in black, the phase ship color scheme. It's a truly mean ship if you look at the start of the fight, civilian colors no longer match it that well with this build.
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5 ships vs 5 Ordos: Executor · Invictus · Paragon · Astral · Legion · Onslaught · Odyssey | Video LibraryHiruma Kai's Challenge

intrinsic_parity

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Re: Built for Aggression: 5 Odyssey Battlecruisers vs 5 Remnant Ordos
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2023, 05:01:39 PM »

I assume you were doing it without omega weapons? Cause resonators would probably kick some butt and you could fit a lot of them.

Also, do you ever test fleets with mixed loadouts? I totally get wanting locusts to deal with small ships but having a squall or two might help vs radiants.
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CapnHector

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Re: Built for Aggression: 5 Odyssey Battlecruisers vs 5 Remnant Ordos
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2023, 05:20:09 PM »

I assume you were doing it without omega weapons? Cause resonators would probably kick some butt and you could fit a lot of them.

Also, do you ever test fleets with mixed loadouts? I totally get wanting locusts to deal with small ships but having a squall or two might help vs radiants.

Resonators would be awesome on this yes, but this is without Omega weapons.

The strange thing about Squalls is that they actually kind of don't work how you would want them to on this ship in this fleet, because they tend to push the Remnants away, which means you don't get to fire your Plasma Cannons on them. Squalls can no longer finish off enemies like in .95.1a, so this slows down the fight and your missiles will run out even if you survive being worse against frigates. Now missiles had run out by the 2nd Radiant here, so your ship must be able to deal with them without anyway, for this challenge.

I didn't in fact try a mixed loadout but Squalls generally seemed to underperform Locust. That said, if you are going for a more normal number of Ordos such as 2, then they might still be the pick for Radiant killing. For this challenge though, they wouldn't even last to the Radiants when even the missiles that help you kill smaller ships fast run out.

To go for fewer Ordos you should also switch to Elite Missile Spec, that is non-elite strictly in an attempt to save at least some missiles for the Radiants.
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5 ships vs 5 Ordos: Executor · Invictus · Paragon · Astral · Legion · Onslaught · Odyssey | Video LibraryHiruma Kai's Challenge

eert5rty7u8i9i7u6yrewqdef

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Re: Built for Aggression: 5 Odyssey Battlecruisers vs 5 Remnant Ordos
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2023, 05:47:04 PM »

With the Autopulses I actually preferred Flash + Broadsword, but for the Plasma Odyssey you just want a ton of flux stats and everything non-essential has to go then. If you do get the flux stats, and you really do need this much, it's great though and doesn't miss the fighters.

For a fun trick that you can pull off for with an alterative Autopulse Laser loadout you can also try linking a Breach Pod with a Locust for an unusually deadly missile swarm that devastates frigates, and that was really impressive, but couldn't afford a Breach Pod in the empty slot either.
Currently working with a 4 Odyssey, two Medusa, 4 Scarab, and 1 pirate Wolf fleet. I haven't tried linking Breach Pods with the Locust, but I'm pretty sure it would run out of Breaches before the fight ended, vs a full 5 ordo. However, I also use a Gazer SRM Pod in the back missile slot, which both helps ensure ships get over fluxed before they can retreat and ensures frigates can't surround/ helps the Locust kill frigates.
Most of my autopulse build is the same except for the Gazer +two Breaches, burst lasers to leverage built in expanded mags, built in expanded missile rack, with elite missile specialization on my officers (no elite on TA), which is required to quickly kill enemy ships once their shield is down. I've fought two large ordos at once, with my fleet being 40% unfinished due to a lack of story points, bad builds, and wrong officer skills. I won with two Scarabs and one Odyssey being disabled (I didn't even have full s-mods and elite skills on two of my Odysseys at the time).

From what I've seen, once shields are down it burns through hull notably slower than your fleet, but the Radiant's shields go down far more quickly, and the Radiant dies before it can backpedal much.

As for your plasma cannon build, dropping hardened subsystems, and using the Kites to distract so you retreat and redeploy would be desirable. When you retreat, do a normal retreat until the Odyssey is out of enemy range, and then do a direct retreat. Direct retreat always causes them to immediately plasma burn regardless of which direction they are facing, and because of the frontal shields they will drop shields and refuse to turn them back on when direct retreating (sometimes).
You have more than enough anti hull, so putting Gazers in the back missile mount would be desirable. Alternatively/in addition getting some better fighters would help. Broadswords obviously, but you can skimp on the flashes because again you have more than enough anti hull.
Don't swap elite TA for elite MS, you will run out of proximity mines before the battle ends. I know this from .95

As for the Ordo size, yea it was 1,489? whereas normal 5 ordos are around 2000.
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Hatter

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Re: Built for Aggression: 5 Odyssey Battlecruisers vs 5 Remnant Ordos
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2023, 07:03:54 PM »


(...)

Thanks! This one took practice learning how this ship works. I would want this one in black, the phase ship color scheme. It's a truly mean ship if you look at the start of the fight, civilian colors no longer match it that well with this build.
Quick recolor-
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SafariJohn

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Re: Built for Aggression: 5 Odyssey Battlecruisers vs 5 Remnant Ordos
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2023, 07:58:13 PM »

Other capitals: Hold the line!
Odyssey: We ball!


(...)

Thanks! This one took practice learning how this ship works. I would want this one in black, the phase ship color scheme. It's a truly mean ship if you look at the start of the fight, civilian colors no longer match it that well with this build.
Quick recolor-

It really fits as a special forces ship, doesn't it?
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TheLaughingDead

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Re: Built for Aggression: 5 Odyssey Battlecruisers vs 5 Remnant Ordos
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2023, 09:54:22 PM »

Love to see it! Especially love the plays with juggling the Apex group and Radiant at the end there. Something about the push and pull of the Odyssey combat is so engaging to watch; like waves, lapping at a shore made of a thousand Remnant ships ;D
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Dri

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Re: Built for Aggression: 5 Odyssey Battlecruisers vs 5 Remnant Ordos
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2023, 10:29:26 PM »

Maybe don't spend over half the time in the command screen when trying to showcase a ship?

Damn, this guy really trying to play Starsector like a RTS.
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CapnHector

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Re: Built for Aggression: 5 Odyssey Battlecruisers vs 5 Remnant Ordos
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2023, 12:45:59 AM »

Maybe don't spend over half the time in the command screen when trying to showcase a ship?

Damn, this guy really trying to play Starsector like a RTS.

Fair! You can't do 5 Ordos without micro though. This ship is cool enough to create a special showcase, however. Here's a showcase of how it works with minimal orders vs a double Ordo. We can drop Hardened Subsystems and stop trying to conserve missiles, making the ship much stronger. I used Hatter's special sprite already. Not fitting them all with front shields was an accident of autofit, I would highly recommend it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jk4OBIzQ2VA

Love to see it! Especially love the plays with juggling the Apex group and Radiant at the end there. Something about the push and pull of the Odyssey combat is so engaging to watch; like waves, lapping at a shore made of a thousand Remnant ships ;D

Inspired by you!


(...)

Thanks! This one took practice learning how this ship works. I would want this one in black, the phase ship color scheme. It's a truly mean ship if you look at the start of the fight, civilian colors no longer match it that well with this build.
Quick recolor-

Thanks! This'll be my Odyssey sprite from here on.

[strategy]

As for the Ordo size, yea it was 1,489? whereas normal 5 ordos are around 2000.

Thanks, very cool tip about the Direct Retreat, maybe that can be useful! Although it's also a suicide command for this ship.

I'm not going to lie, this ship is weaker than the others. Still, I have two series going, one is weaker but interesting Ordo fleets and the other is the 5 vs 5 series. I feel this fits more in the latter, but it should be understood it is in no way as strong as the Onslaught or Paragon fleet. Those two I think could take up to 7 and 10 Ordos respectively. Legion is also very strong. Executor is mid tier, Astral and Odyssey are weaker and can only handle 5 weak Ordos, probably not 5 arbitrary Ordos.

Outfitting ships for double Ordos and 5 Ordos is quite different as we can see from this showcase, but I'll be very happy if you can improve the build.
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5 ships vs 5 Ordos: Executor · Invictus · Paragon · Astral · Legion · Onslaught · Odyssey | Video LibraryHiruma Kai's Challenge

Lawrence Master-blaster

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Re: Built for Aggression: 5 Odyssey Battlecruisers vs 5 Remnant Ordos
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2023, 09:30:53 AM »

You can't do 5 Ordos without micro though.

In general or as part of "5 of same ship" challenge? I bet it could be done in general.
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CapnHector

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Re: Built for Aggression: 5 Odyssey Battlecruisers vs 5 Remnant Ordos
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2023, 10:32:28 AM »

You can't do 5 Ordos without micro though.

In general or as part of "5 of same ship" challenge? I bet it could be done in general.

I remember back when I thought doing 3-4 Ordos with Gryphons was broken and such feats are impossible for other ships (funny how these fights get a lot easier when you know it can be done by the way) so I know better than to say something is really impossible. Let's rephrase that I'll be impressed if you put together a fleet that doesn't require (many) orders after the deployment phase - say, no manually repositioning or pulling back ships - and defeats 5 Ordos somewhat cleanly.

My complaint about Gryphons being overly strong is withdrawn for obvious reasons btw.
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5 ships vs 5 Ordos: Executor · Invictus · Paragon · Astral · Legion · Onslaught · Odyssey | Video LibraryHiruma Kai's Challenge
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