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Author Topic: Power of the Proxy: Demolishing 5 Ordos with 5 Legions (video)  (Read 4255 times)

CapnHector

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Re: Power of the Proxy: Demolishing 5 Ordos with 5 Legions (video)
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2023, 01:26:57 AM »

That Legion XIV looks really good, definitely gonna try that. CapnHector I was wondering how your weapon groups are set up on your Legion?

Nothing special here just every weapon type in its own group and the PCLs are alternating since we want to save ammo. I probably should start showing this in the videos too, sorry.
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5 ships vs 5 Ordos: Executor · Invictus · Paragon · Astral · Legion · Onslaught · Odyssey | Video LibraryHiruma Kai's Challenge

Draba

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Re: Power of the Proxy: Demolishing 5 Ordos with 5 Legions (video)
« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2023, 03:23:12 AM »

Uploaded the battle, pulled 6 stacks but turns out Legions can do it so a happy little accident:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sl3A4SEfBk

Both kinds of Legion are just crazy strong aren't they?
Yeah, one of the best ships in this update.
This is the perfect battle for them to show off, but also great in general.


I wonder if this opens the door to other 40-45 DP ships ordo'ing or if the Onslaught lacks the force projection from the fighters and the battlecruisers are too fragile.
Onslaught might possibly do it, it has many of the attributes of the Legion.
...
Odyssey I actually have no idea.
Tried the Onslaught but it got bogged down by frigates/Scintillas and ran out of CR.
Might be possible with some loadout I didn't think of, or up to something like ~1500 DP enemies but my bet would be no.

Odyssey guess is it can do it, super fast with good flux stats and 2 L energies so it can chase/kill small ships.
Also has 2 direct fire M missiles in front for reaping.


I previously thought they couldn't do this one but I was quite clearly proven wrong.
I've tried the exact same XIV Legion setup before, just with mass Sarissa (safe sustained kinetic+mass PD looked great on paper).
Got stomped so I also thought it's not possible, turns out Sarissas are just much worse than I expected.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2023, 11:42:31 AM by Draba »
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Thaago

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Re: Power of the Proxy: Demolishing 5 Ordos with 5 Legions (video)
« Reply #17 on: July 19, 2023, 08:33:30 AM »

I find the amount of HE on those Legion XIVs to be very interesting for Remnant fighting! I would not have thought that to be the way to go vs putting in more kinetic.
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BigBrainEnergy

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Re: Power of the Proxy: Demolishing 5 Ordos with 5 Legions (video)
« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2023, 10:05:31 AM »

At this rate it's starting to look like capital spam is the way to go. Even if they're well optimized, can cruisers really compare?
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Grievous69

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Re: Power of the Proxy: Demolishing 5 Ordos with 5 Legions (video)
« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2023, 10:15:46 AM »

At this rate it's starting to look like capital spam is the way to go. Even if they're well optimized, can cruisers really compare?
You never need to fight 5 Ordos at once though. I've had really big battles in campaign and very rarely did I have CR issues. Don't really think cruisers need to be stress tested to that extent. These were more of a fun experiments to see how each ship can be optimized for Ordos and longetivity.
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Lawrence Master-blaster

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Re: Power of the Proxy: Demolishing 5 Ordos with 5 Legions (video)
« Reply #20 on: July 19, 2023, 10:26:57 AM »

At this rate it's starting to look like capital spam is the way to go. Even if they're well optimized, can cruisers really compare?

Isn't it expected that ships which cost more and are harder to get and have worse logistics stats are better?
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itBeABruhMoment

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Re: Power of the Proxy: Demolishing 5 Ordos with 5 Legions (video)
« Reply #21 on: July 19, 2023, 10:47:50 AM »

Isn't it expected that ships which cost more and are harder to get and have worse logistics stats are better?
The fact that the class of ship that's supposed to be weak against swarms is winning against swarms is kind of concerning balance wise. Though it could just be that the glimmer and fulgent variants suck.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2023, 10:52:18 AM by itBeABruhMoment »
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Grievous69

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Re: Power of the Proxy: Demolishing 5 Ordos with 5 Legions (video)
« Reply #22 on: July 19, 2023, 10:52:19 AM »

That entirely depends on loadouts of a capital, CapnHector clearly sacrifices some parts of his builds so that they have less issues with smaller ships. Starsector doesn't really have a rock, paper, scissors balance, and thank god for that.
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Void Ganymede

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Re: Power of the Proxy: Demolishing 5 Ordos with 5 Legions (video)
« Reply #23 on: July 19, 2023, 11:05:20 AM »

Plus remember the Remnant frigates are Fearless and will happily suicide into a capital blob.

It's cool to see Mjolnir EMP doing work making the combat safe enough to clear it. Legion is probably my favorite capital flagship because of how overwhelming and mobile it can be.
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Draba

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Re: Power of the Proxy: Demolishing 5 Ordos with 5 Legions (video)
« Reply #24 on: July 19, 2023, 11:53:30 AM »

At this rate it's starting to look like capital spam is the way to go. Even if they're well optimized, can cruisers really compare?
Going ~monofleet against massive ordo stacks is a very different type of battle, capital spam is mainly the way to go because PPT is the limit and capitals have the most of it.
Ofc highest range leading to lower attrition and being durable enough to survive radiant/nova jumps are also important, and officers limit how many smaller ships you can "properly" use.
(+almost all S/M missiles suck really hard when you are heavily outnumbered, that also doesn't help)


I find the amount of HE on those Legion XIVs to be very interesting for Remnant fighting! I would not have thought that to be the way to go vs putting in more kinetic.
HE is just as good as kinetic against shields, just need lots of it :)



The fact that the class of ship that's supposed to be weak against swarms is winning against swarms is kind of concerning balance wise.
I don't think capitals are supposed to be weak against swarms.


Isn't it expected that ships which cost more and are harder to get and have worse logistics stats are better?
There shouldn't be(and mostly aren't) plain "better" ships in the game, it'd be really dull if getting bigger ships always increase overall power.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2023, 12:07:00 PM by Draba »
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BaBosa

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Re: Power of the Proxy: Demolishing 5 Ordos with 5 Legions (video)
« Reply #25 on: July 19, 2023, 01:13:40 PM »

I’m curious if legion would have done just as well before the recent buff.
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Thaago

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Re: Power of the Proxy: Demolishing 5 Ordos with 5 Legions (video)
« Reply #26 on: July 19, 2023, 01:33:35 PM »

Quote
...

I find the amount of HE on those Legion XIVs to be very interesting for Remnant fighting! I would not have thought that to be the way to go vs putting in more kinetic.
HE is just as good as kinetic against shields, just need lots of it :)
...

Haha a reaper is just a sabot that can't be hull tanked after all!

But I was more thinking of the heavy maulers. I tend to do a mix of maulers + HVDs, not pure mauler + railguns.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2023, 04:28:09 PM by Thaago »
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Draba

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Re: Power of the Proxy: Demolishing 5 Ordos with 5 Legions (video)
« Reply #27 on: July 19, 2023, 02:44:11 PM »

But I was more thinking of the heavy maulers. I tend to do a mix of maulers + HVDs, not pure mauler + railguns.
  • Capital ITU, ballistics mastery, 1000 base range, wide arcs: lots of potshots on hull against enemies occupied by fighters, other ships or pilums.
    Nova and Lumen in particular hate any kind of HE with their itty-bitty shield arcs
  • When railguns drive hardflux up the target still has a long way to go to get out of mauler range.
    With long range kinetic it often starts escaping faster and tanks less armor/hull DPS for a lower distance.
    Average distance at which reapers are fired at is probably also lower, but that's really hard to measure.
  • All S/M ballistic kinetics are decent to great. All S HE options are weak for general use so S will be all railguns for the accuracy.
    Fighters also lean towards kinetic, broadswords are still good.
    What's missing is accurate HE that can still put a dent in bigger ships and open slots are M ballistics, the only option in S/M is mauler.

Overall I like heavy mauler, and don't think hypervelocity is very good (expensive, very low efficiency, slow turnrate).
If there is some spare venting left building in armored mounts almost always feels better than wasting flux (and the mount) on hypervelocity.
The only case coming to mind where I'd use HVD are the 3 hardpoints on a mixed fleet, full beam+advanced optics Executor.
Honorable mention for autolance+ion beam+1 mauler Eagle, but it can also use more kinetic DPS from 2 HACs.
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eert5rty7u8i9i7u6yrewqdef

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Re: Power of the Proxy: Demolishing 5 Ordos with 5 Legions (video)
« Reply #28 on: July 19, 2023, 03:05:37 PM »

Uploaded the battle, pulled 6 stacks but turns out Legions can do it so a happy little accident:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sl3A4SEfBk

Both kinds of Legion are just crazy strong aren't they?
Yeah, one of the best ships in this update.
This is the perfect battle for them to show off, but also great in general.


I wonder if this opens the door to other 40-45 DP ships ordo'ing or if the Onslaught lacks the force projection from the fighters and the battlecruisers are too fragile.
Onslaught might possibly do it, it has many of the attributes of the Legion.
...
Odyssey I actually have no idea.
Tried the Onslaught but it got bogged down by frigates/Scintillas and ran out of CR.
Might be possible with some loadout I didn't think of, or up to something like ~1500 DP enemies but my bet would be no.

Odyssey guess is it can do it, super fast with good flux stats and 2 L energies so it can chase/kill small ships.
Also has 2 direct fire M missiles in front for reaping.


I previously thought they couldn't do this one but I was quite clearly proven wrong.
I've tried the exact same XIV Legion setup before, just with mass Sarissa (safe sustained kinetic+mass PD looked great on paper).
Got stomped so I also thought it's not possible, turns out Sarissas are just much worse than I expected.

It should be pointed out you did this with 0 losses. The build would be nice to have as well.

The reason sarissa is bad in comparison to regular fighters is that it has no distraction potential. You avoided getting swarmed during the frigate phase due to the frigates getting swarmed and distracted by fighters. The most important part of any generalist capital build is how it deals with frigates.

Typhoon reaper launchers only have 6 ammo, so Odysseys can't do it, at least not with reapers. To put it in perspective, each of your ships have 120 reapers (20+20+20)*2, and Odyssey would only have 36 (6+6+6)*2. Breach missiles would probably be a better choice as the AI doesn't spam them, but still uses them well.
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Draba

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Re: Power of the Proxy: Demolishing 5 Ordos with 5 Legions (video)
« Reply #29 on: July 19, 2023, 04:20:52 PM »

It should be pointed out you did this with 0 losses. The build would be nice to have as well.
Most of the skills are always the same, not much going on there.
Collected everything into 1 post, click on the images for a bigger version.

Skills:
Spoiler


[close]
On legions elite impact mitigation is the only flexible skill, it could also be helmsmanship or field modulation. Field modulation is probably the best, success on the first attempt so didn't get around to try it.

Wolves are there for the nav/ECM boost, only skills they should always have are elite gunnery implants for the 4% ECM and elite helmsmanship.
The entire fleet is 220 DP in battle so capturing 2 points is enough no matter what they are.

Loadout:
Spoiler

[close]

Combat result:
Spoiler

[close]

Video:


The reason sarissa is bad in comparison to regular fighters is that it has no distraction potential.
Not distracting (so staying alive :) ) could be a sidegrade. Problem is the capital weapons here outrange them so they are often not doing anything when it'd be really needed.
Also can't help out the friendly getting shot up 1000 distance away, that's a dealbreaker.


Typhoon reaper launchers only have 6 ammo, so Odysseys can't do it, at least not with reapers. To put it in perspective, each of your ships have 120 reapers (20+20+20)*2, and Odyssey would only have 36 (6+6+6)*2. Breach missiles would probably be a better choice as the AI doesn't spam them, but still uses them well.
Typhoon has 18 shots at 15s base reload (and free ECCM here), Cyclone 30 shots at 10s.
2 Typhoons aren't in the same ballpark as 2 Cyclones, just mentioned them because having armor crackers that last an entire battle really helps out something like autopulse (tends to punch itself out on shields and isn't too hot against heavy armor).

In the meantime did try Odysseys and it can't be done with 5 IMO (also thought that about Invictus though).
S energies are dead weight and it really needs squall to have enough shield damage and some flux left, but squalls run out in a marathon like this.
Can't trade with the 700 range hardflux options, can't take shields down with HIL. 700 range PDAI irpulse spam+double HIL+pilum catapult and 1 autopulse on both sides, builtin mags, 1 HIL and LR PD spam came closest.
It really needs a "standard" battle where it can use squall+reapers+double HIL to shine.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2023, 04:24:08 PM by Draba »
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