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Author Topic: PCLs are overpowered  (Read 4861 times)

Thaago

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Re: PCLs are overpowered
« Reply #30 on: July 19, 2023, 10:33:27 PM »

Yeah, the proposed change would take the 'Incoming hp per second' impact of elite missile spec from +125% (current) to +56.25% (new) over baseline.

I know raw hp is not everything/wholly accurate, but it means that a ship needs only ~70% of the PD they otherwise would to keep up with saturation style rockets/squalls (1.5625/2.25).
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Lawrence Master-blaster

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Re: PCLs are overpowered
« Reply #31 on: July 20, 2023, 04:49:01 AM »

I'm too lazy to do the math but I'd take a bet that the only (small) PD able to keep up with Squalls both before and after the nerf will be Vulcan.

So I don't really exepct anything to change as Remnants don't use Vulcans.
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Alex

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Re: PCLs are overpowered
« Reply #32 on: July 20, 2023, 09:51:54 AM »

Squalls are going to get less HP to begin with, anyway; their high HP was based on the sort of conceptual idea that they're more or less solid chunks of metal - and mechanics-wise, on the idea that it's meant to be fired at a non-overloaded ship, and if it's too easily countered by PD, that'd be pretty useless. But the scripted anti-shield damage does away with the first, and it's pretty clearly overtuned for the second, soo.
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Sendrien

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Re: PCLs are overpowered
« Reply #33 on: July 20, 2023, 05:03:13 PM »

Squalls are going to get less HP to begin with, anyway; their high HP was based on the sort of conceptual idea that they're more or less solid chunks of metal - and mechanics-wise, on the idea that it's meant to be fired at a non-overloaded ship, and if it's too easily countered by PD, that'd be pretty useless. But the scripted anti-shield damage does away with the first, and it's pretty clearly overtuned for the second, soo.

With Missile Specialization already getting nerfed, it may be prudent to avoid stacking nerfs from multiple sources in the same patch.

I am certainly no developer, but as a player, I have seen so many games where something is overtuned, and the subsequent nerf ends up see-sawing the power level in the opposite direction and the target of the nerf is now completely useless. The culprit of this is usually the unintended effects of multiple interacting balance changes.

Consider this:

Squall HP Nerf + Missile Specialization Nerf + PD Buff = Useless Squall (likely outcome)

Given that you usually patch new updates, why not put out the strongest changes first, while withholding the easy alterations as a low-effort means for balance tweaking? For instance, whatever means you plan to buff PD + Missile Spec nerf for the next update. Then, if Squalls still feel overtuned, you can still nerf its HP.
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BaBosa

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Re: PCLs are overpowered
« Reply #34 on: July 20, 2023, 05:32:05 PM »

Yea definitely need to watch out for over nerffing missiles. There’s also the possible nerf to the gryphon to make its autoforge only replace the base number of missiles and or making it unaffected by system expertise. 

This also wouldn’t be needed if officers couldn’t easily get capstones.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2023, 05:38:23 PM by BaBosa »
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Alex

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Re: PCLs are overpowered
« Reply #35 on: July 20, 2023, 05:50:25 PM »

With Missile Specialization already getting nerfed, it may be prudent to avoid stacking nerfs from multiple sources in the same patch.

I am certainly no developer, but as a player, I have seen so many games where something is overtuned, and the subsequent nerf ends up see-sawing the power level in the opposite direction and the target of the nerf is now completely useless. The culprit of this is usually the unintended effects of multiple interacting balance changes.

Consider this:

Squall HP Nerf + Missile Specialization Nerf + PD Buff = Useless Squall (likely outcome)

Given that you usually patch new updates, why not put out the strongest changes first, while withholding the easy alterations as a low-effort means for balance tweaking? For instance, whatever means you plan to buff PD + Missile Spec nerf for the next update. Then, if Squalls still feel overtuned, you can still nerf its HP.

Yeah, that makes sense. I wasn't planning to buff PD, though! I think it's actually in a good place except for when it deals with some specific outliers. And it feels like baseline, no-Missile-Spec Squall HP is too high in relation to what PD can do about it. Still, there's of course the danger of overcompensating; you're certainly right about that. But it also feels pretty definite to me that *just* the Missile Spec changes aren't enough for Squalls, so I'd rather make that change - perhaps a fairly conservative one to start - and see how it goes, than not touch it at all.
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Sendrien

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Re: PCLs are overpowered
« Reply #36 on: July 21, 2023, 03:33:17 AM »

Yeah, that makes sense. I wasn't planning to buff PD, though! I think it's actually in a good place except for when it deals with some specific outliers. And it feels like baseline, no-Missile-Spec Squall HP is too high in relation to what PD can do about it. Still, there's of course the danger of overcompensating; you're certainly right about that. But it also feels pretty definite to me that *just* the Missile Spec changes aren't enough for Squalls, so I'd rather make that change - perhaps a fairly conservative one to start - and see how it goes, than not touch it at all.

Ah, I didn't realize you weren't buffing PD. In this new context, it makes sense then.

But perhaps you really could take a second look at PD. It doesn't feel like it's in the right place against fighters or missiles, and the value for OP seems a little off when ballistic PDs are often far more effective than their laser counterparts. For instance, two vulcans can effectively secure a Hammerhead's rear against most missile threats, while PD or LRPDs cannot. Then, when you move to medium and large slots, you're literally dealing with AOE PD (flak) vs. single target. You have to stack multiple Burst PDs in order to deal with a single torpedo threat, while a flak or devastator screen renders almost all incoming missile fire pointless.
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Lawrence Master-blaster

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Re: PCLs are overpowered
« Reply #37 on: July 21, 2023, 04:24:16 AM »

The only missile that should go near your rear is the Salamander, which has 150 HP, which means a single PD Laser(75 damage/second) is enough to shoot it down.

Dual Flak is great but it's also medium sized so you should be comparing it to Heavy Burst PD and Devastator with the Paladin. The thing is, high tech ships are usually low on mounts, so you're not going to "waste" one of them on a pure PD weapon.

Personally what I hate the most about PD is fighter flares because they basically render all non-AoE PD obsolete for several seconds. This is especially damaging to (Heavy) Burst PD because they fire all their charges on nothing. And weirdly enough, while the flares can fool PD, they cannot fool your main guns which will still happily shoot the fighters...
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