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Author Topic: PCLs are overpowered  (Read 5662 times)

Alex

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Re: PCLs are overpowered
« Reply #15 on: July 18, 2023, 06:04:44 PM »

Hmm. Would a frag PCL feel strong enough vs fighters? I have a feeling it might struggle some against Broadswords and similar.
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BaBosa

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Re: PCLs are overpowered
« Reply #16 on: July 18, 2023, 06:08:10 PM »

Hmm. Would a frag PCL feel strong enough vs fighters? I have a feeling it might struggle some against Broadswords and similar.
Could they be given bonus damage to fighters/missiles? Emp would be another option.
Going from HE to frag means broadswords are just killed in 3 hits rather than easily killed in 2. That’s only one more hit unless it is far enough for reduced damage and then it lasts longer but I don’t think that’s a huge issue. I assume most will be within the full damage blast and it’s still really effective.

Edit:
Spoiler
100 - 500/4 * 500/4 / (500/4 + 100) = 30.555…
30.6 - 500/4 * 500/4 / (500/4 + 30.6) = -69.8

750 - 69.8*4 * 500/4 / (500/4 + 5) = 481.5
481.5 - 500 * 500/4 / (500/4 + 5) = 0.73
[close]
Redid the calculations with less rounding and broadswords would just survive 3 hits. How does the rounding in damage work exactly?
« Last Edit: July 18, 2023, 06:30:42 PM by BaBosa »
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eert5rty7u8i9i7u6yrewqdef

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Re: PCLs are overpowered
« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2023, 08:13:08 PM »

Hmm. Would a frag PCL feel strong enough vs fighters? I have a feeling it might struggle some against Broadswords and similar.
It deals area damage, so even if it takes three or four shots to kill the heavier armored fighters, it will kill multiple fighters in three to four shots. Due to the damage it deals, one shot will be enough to disable the fighters that get hit, allowing follow up shots and other weapons to easily kill fighters.

This is assuming it gets a substantial ammo buff.
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CapnHector

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Re: PCLs are overpowered
« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2023, 09:39:40 PM »

Hmm. Would a frag PCL feel strong enough vs fighters? I have a feeling it might struggle some against Broadswords and similar.

To make a comparison, it's still essentially a flux-free dual flak cannon with +10% dps, 1000 range and 500 rather than 150 hit strength. Also if it's affected by the Point Defense skill it will still 2 shot Broadswords with the skill. It just needs enough ammo that you want to take a missile primary for PD to be good. Even Missile Specialization elite will push it to 2 shot.

Edit to add: I don't see myself using the frag PD version much with 50 ammo because if you invest heavily in them to get the extra ammo then you want your missiles to be your burst or anti armor and not PD; but if it had infinite or functionally infinite (say base 150) ammo then it would definitely be a pick for many builds because then it would essentially handle your PD from a missile slot and without requiring the missile skill and accessories.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2023, 09:50:43 PM by CapnHector »
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Sendrien

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Re: PCLs are overpowered
« Reply #19 on: July 18, 2023, 09:51:13 PM »

Hmm. Would a frag PCL feel strong enough vs fighters? I have a feeling it might struggle some against Broadswords and similar.

Changing it to frag damage doesn't even address the reason why it feels OP. Unless the PCL is really meant to be a proxy for point defense, I contend it makes more sense to lower its ability to spam charges.

Said otherwise, I think PCL serves a much more interesting role as a frigate killer than a fighter killer.
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Goumindong

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Re: PCLs are overpowered
« Reply #20 on: July 18, 2023, 11:23:54 PM »

How does the Flash version of the PCL work?  Quick glance says six ammo and 2000 range.  I guess that version is closer to the original PCL.

Fine. I think the problem with the PCL now is that it has velocity. The Flash dumps PCL and then leaves. And they have roughly the same speed as the new PCL but you cannot get missile spec +ECCM speed bonuses onto Flash PCL's so they make a wall of bombs that enemy ships try and avoid/shoot down. Its very effective area denial and good anti-ship. But its also slow and non-specific compared to other bombers.

PCL are good to OK without ECCM and skills but probably not the "killer app" that they are currently. Changing them to frag may also work but i think they would be better they were "zero velocity" like they used to be
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Buggie

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Re: PCLs are overpowered
« Reply #21 on: July 19, 2023, 01:54:28 PM »

PCL shots aren't affected by eccm boosts, but yeah i believe they're still quite a bit faster than the flash version
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vladokapuh

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Re: PCLs are overpowered
« Reply #22 on: July 19, 2023, 03:10:57 PM »

as much as i agree with PCL being overpowered, turning them into some odd "unique" thing, or into frag weapon, will just make it not exist as a usable option again
imo just tune the stats down, and nerf missile spec
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Cabbage

Megas

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Re: PCLs are overpowered
« Reply #23 on: July 19, 2023, 03:58:51 PM »

The original version that was too slow and PD-enabled was bad.  The ammo was wasted on missiles that had no chance of intercepting (and I cannot tell my AI ships not to fire PCLs at missiles).  (Did not help that radius attacks back then did not hit for full damage, like doing less damage to hull than heavy blaster.)

If Missile Spec gets nerfed (enough that it is no better than other combat skills), it probably should become tier 1 like every other combat skill.  It is very powerful, but I expect capstones to be strong or at game-changing.
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Alex

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Re: PCLs are overpowered
« Reply #24 on: July 19, 2023, 04:03:34 PM »

Missile Specialization is definitely getting nerfed! Going to be something like +25% each on rate of fire and hitpoints.

I kind of like the PCL as it is, feel-wise - it's satisfying to use and its an impactful weapon. I wonder if e.g. toning the rate of fire down by half or some such might not be enough.
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Megas

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Re: PCLs are overpowered
« Reply #25 on: July 19, 2023, 04:20:14 PM »

Missile Specialization is definitely getting nerfed! Going to be something like +25% each on rate of fire and hitpoints.

I kind of like the PCL as it is, feel-wise - it's satisfying to use and its an impactful weapon. I wonder if e.g. toning the rate of fire down by half or some such might not be enough.
The sort of nerf I was expecting was something drastic like less ammo count (like +25% or +50% instead of +100%).

I would not mind slower rate of fire, if the ammo count stays (or gets more ammo).  I like endurance options for missiles.  Currently, PCL is an Annihilator Pod with double damage that is also AoE, half fire rate, and effectively much fatter hitbox.

The main reason I pick PCL over Annihilators is the AoE and it whiffs a lot less.  Using Annihilators are frustrating because they are slow and miss a lot.  PCL does everything I want from Annihilators and more.  The only reason to use Annihilators is they are relatively common early, only to be dumped when player acquires the blueprint to mass-produce the rare stuff.

P.S.  Anyone remember old arcade games like Super Contra or Cabal?  In games like those, you start with a pea-shooter or low-grade machinegun, and one of the powerups is a grenade launcher that shoots slower (or at least slower than high-speed machinegun upgrade) but hits harder and has AoE.  This is what PCL is like, the grenade launcher upgrade to Annihilator Pod.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2023, 04:36:02 PM by Megas »
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Thaago

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Re: PCLs are overpowered
« Reply #26 on: July 19, 2023, 04:39:07 PM »

Missile Specialization is definitely getting nerfed! Going to be something like +25% each on rate of fire and hitpoints.

I kind of like the PCL as it is, feel-wise - it's satisfying to use and its an impactful weapon. I wonder if e.g. toning the rate of fire down by half or some such might not be enough.

Hmmm, what if it had a burst magazine style of firing, say 2 or 3 shot burst with a little spread, then a longer reload to bring its dps down? That would still be a nice assault weapon, but the spread and lower DPS would make it less dominant. Meanwhile vs fighters the burst damage would be... impressive.

The Missile Spec nerf has been long coming! A sad day for low tech, but honestly a good call. It will still be a big upgrade, just not quite so insane of a dps increase for rockets/torpedoes.
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BaBosa

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Re: PCLs are overpowered
« Reply #27 on: July 19, 2023, 04:41:55 PM »

Missile Specialization is definitely getting nerfed! Going to be something like +25% each on rate of fire and hitpoints.

I kind of like the PCL as it is, feel-wise - it's satisfying to use and its an impactful weapon. I wonder if e.g. toning the rate of fire down by half or some such might not be enough.
Just lowering the firering rate would probably be enough. It wouldn't be a flux free heavy HE blaster anymore which is really the problem and I don't think the current fire rate is needed for PD. Edit: Making it a magazine based weapon sounds really good, would let you drop it's sustained dps more without losing it's PD ability.

My personal opinion about missile spec is that it is fine for the player, it is that you can easily give it to every officer and the AI for long range missiles is really good so it stays really impactful on AI ships unlike some other powerful things. If it was just more rare or even locked behind an officer skill then it wouldn't be so much of an issue.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2023, 04:46:02 PM by BaBosa »
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Lawrence Master-blaster

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Re: PCLs are overpowered
« Reply #28 on: July 19, 2023, 10:21:40 PM »

Missile Specialization is definitely getting nerfed! Going to be something like +25% each on rate of fire and hitpoints.

Oh good, Squalls will last even longer...
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TheLaughingDead

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Re: PCLs are overpowered
« Reply #29 on: July 19, 2023, 10:29:07 PM »

Missile Specialization is definitely getting nerfed! Going to be something like +25% each on rate of fire and hitpoints.

Oh good, Squalls will last even longer...

Sweet, lower RoF and HP might mean PD will have a chance at keeping up with Squalls!
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