Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[toopok4k3]

I was just making some frigates of my own and become stuck on wondering if I even should try to have stats akin to brawler and call a ship worth only 5 DP. Felt like I was making something overpowered. Brawler just seems like a clear outlier amongst its peers.

I'm wondering what the justifications are for Alex to keep it at only 5 DP? It even outclasses tempest(8dp) in flux dissipation and capacity, has good armor compared to other 5 DP stuff. It's clearly meant as a very effective ship considering its fleet points are at 7.

The question is why is it allowed to remain so cheap?

[Grievous69]

Are we talking about the same ship here? Wide frigate with only hardpoints that's basically only the head of the Hammerhead, that one. Because those are nowhere near overpowered. LP ones are busted but it seems you're not talking about those since they're not 5 DP.

I want to know about your opinion that it outclasses Tempest if you are in fact talking about the vanilla Brawler, that sounds weird to me.

[toopok4k3]

I want to know about your opinion that it outclasses Tempest if you are in fact talking about the vanilla Brawler, that sounds weird to me.

I only said it outclasses tempest in flux dissipation and capacity.

[Lawrence Master-blaster]

Probably because it's only good on paper, in practice the frigate "strafing" AI means it's not going to fire its guns half the time, or it's going to fire with a guaranteed miss. It's also almost completely helpless against fighters and is very slow for a frigate, which pushes it into "fire support" role, for which there's no reason to use a frigate in the first place.

[Grievous69]

I want to know about your opinion that it outclasses Tempest if you are in fact talking about the vanilla Brawler, that sounds weird to me.

I only said it outclasses tempest in flux dissipation and capacity.

Not sure I even agree with that if you look at the shield upkeep of both ships. But the original sentence seemed like it tried to make a point. You mentioned one upside and then stopped, not sure how are you arguing it's too cheap at 5 DP. I genuinely want to hear other views on this ship as I find it useless personally.

Like Lawrence said, it seems cool on paper but why would you ever take a fire support frigate in the first place, one that has 100 base speed...

[Talinoth]

I don't think I've ever come across a (non-SO) Brawler that ever really impressed/scared me - and I've had some scary encounters with Hounds before!

Anything it could theoretically beat up can instead kite it, enemies who can't kite simply directly roll over it. Because the guns are hardpoints apparently, it's impressively bad at hitting strafing frigates. It really does feel like a frigate based on the "I need a small disposable meatshield to stop my cruisers getting flanked, give it enough flux to not instantly die" school of thought that sees frigates as merely escorts for larger ships, instead of vessels with their own important role.

Not sure where I would ever personally use one. Early game exploration/fights there's much more DP-efficient pirate trash I can obtain, and point-capping or wolfpack strats are best accomplished by frigates that are faster and harder hitting (especially when the DP cost per ship doesn't matter so much anymore).

[toopok4k3]

Not sure I even agree with that if you look at the shield upkeep of both ships. But the original sentence seemed like it tried to make a point.

I'm literally wondering about why the ship is so cheap, I'm not here to argue. Just looking for the reasons since it's a clear stat outlier on paper as Lawrence Master-blaster said.

(I'm a modder, I don't play the game anymore.)

[Grievous69]

Well then there's your answer, there's more to a ship than pure stats. Another ship that seems broken on paper is Retribution, check out its stats and think if that seems right for a 35 DP battlecruiser, yet it's obviously not that great in gameplay (unless player piloted).

[BaBosa]

I was just making some frigates of my own and become stuck on wondering if I even should try to have stats akin to brawler and call a ship worth only 5 DP. Felt like I was making something overpowered. Brawler just seems like a clear outlier amongst its peers.

I'm wondering what the justifications are for Alex to keep it at only 5 DP? It even outclasses tempest(8dp) in flux dissipation and capacity, has good armor compared to other 5 DP stuff. It's clearly meant as a very effective ship considering its fleet points are at 7.

The question is why is it allowed to remain so cheap?

Low speed and manoeuvrability (for a frigate), front shield, and only 4 forward hard point weapon slots means that it struggles to leverage its flux advantage to win fights. Also due to being a frigate it only gets 10% range from ITU so it’s kinda like a destroyer which aren’t fast enough or tough enough to do well in fights.

[toopok4k3]

Well then there's your answer, there's more to a ship than pure stats. Another ship that seems broken on paper is Retribution, check out its stats and think if that seems right for a 35 DP battlecruiser, yet it's obviously not that great in gameplay (unless player piloted).

Thanks for your valuable insight.

[Hiruma Kai]

DP isn't based purely on stats, it is based on in combat performance which is an interaction of a lot of factors, both things like flux but also things like speed and ship system, as well as non-stat card things like weapon selection and placement.  Now if a non-Safety Override Brawler was winning 1 on 1 fights with a non-Safety Override Tempest 50% of the time, that might be an argument for a Brawler being worth 8 DP, but last I checked, it doesn't.

Without sim or actual battle success rates, you are not going to be able to determine the DP value properly.  The Brawler is the Eagle of frigates.  The Eagle is literally a giant pile of stats these days, but its DP value dropped in 0.96 to 20.  I'd be curious would your DP assessment on the value of an Eagle versus, say, an Aurora (only 100 less dissipation) or Gryphon (much better flux stats) be?

[BigBrainEnergy]

I'm wondering what the justifications are for Alex to keep it at only 5 DP? It even outclasses tempest(8dp) in flux dissipation and capacity, has good armor compared to other 5 DP stuff. It's clearly meant as a very effective ship considering its fleet points are at 7.

The tempest has turrets instead of hardpoints making it much more reliable at staying on target, the tempest is much faster even when the brawler activate maneuvering jets, the brawler has a wider profile making it easier to hit, the tempest has drones that serve as pd while the brawler has no options for pd (which is a problem when frigates are very vulnerable to fighters).

The brawler is designed to have great raw stats at the expense of a lot of other, softer qualities. The result is that it's not very good because those qualities are often what make or break a frigate. The speed in particular is a problem because it's never going to have enough range or raw stats to duke it out with larger ships but when its jets are on cooldown it struggles to break out of an engagement. When you factor in its wide profile suddenly those defensive stats not as strong as they sound in theory. It gets outclassed by more reliable options.

[Grievous69]

The Brawler is the Eagle of frigates.

But Eagle is actually good in a fleet.

[Lawrence Master-blaster]

Don't say the e-word!

[FooF]

I heard Eagle so I had to come and defend it’s honor…

Brawler is supposed to be an escort, IMO. It doesn’t operate well on its own but if it can contribute its Mediums without taking a lot fire back, it’s ok. I think of it as a gun platform, not a true frigate. I think the Centurion is all around better but I do use Brawlers in early fleets to defend squishy Destroyers like Sunders. If they’re asked to pivot rather than chase, it’s not quite so bad.