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[Jang]

Here is 11 Moras and 4 Glimmers vs 1400 DP of Remnant ships, with victory after one clean disengage and two frigate losses.



It seems like Support Doctrine/Derelict Operations (SD/DO) is the most reliable way to beef up carrier fleets for endgame but I wanted to try something different, so I went with these officered Moras instead. There's a relatively low number of wings (33) in this fleet compared to SD/DO carrier fleets and that's a challenge against this many enemies, but after lots of testing I've settled on the current fighter loadout.

I'm sharing a recording of the fight below, just keep in mind there's no commentary and I spend a lot of time looking at the tactical map. I was tweaking this fleet for about a week so I promise I wasn't trying to steal CapnHector's carrier vs ordo idea! I did get a lot of inspiration from his other threads though, and Vanshilar's thread too, so big thanks to them. Anyway, here's the recording and fleet info:

Fleet info and combat reports

Character skills. I'm actually level 20 here but I have 15 levels of skills to match vanilla. Field Repair is a good skill to take, I just forgot lol


BRF isn't strictly necessary or anything. I had similar results using Aux Thrusters instead, or 4x LDAC + vents, or even Unstable Injector
1 BS 2 Flash is another strong option, or 1 Sarissa 2 Flash, but in my experience the Claws help secure kills against ships that would otherwise backpeddle forever against these slow Moras
TMI is an information mod so it doesn't affect combat, meant to remove it before the screenshot



I have a number of utility/campaign mods but none of them affect combat here. Most of the battle is ran with speed-up active, but there's an fps cap to also not affect combat.

[close]

I expect SD/DO Moras to be stronger, but I probably won't test that anytime soon. Glimmers are definitely not optimal for bonus XP - you could replace them with other frigates but I personally like Glimmers. This isn't the strongest 4x ordo, but I had CR and fighter rate to spare by the end so 1500-1600 DP fights shouldn't be an issue either. That center Mora in the first screenshot survives to keep fighting if you can believe it! Elite CR is quite nice on these ships.

[CapnHector]

Very cool, it's nice that carriers can do it too thanks for the video! I may have to take inspiration from your fighter setup. Don't worry it's not a copyrighted idea, rather I enjoy that extreme Ordo hunting is a thing. Since that also implies extreme fleet optimization which is fun.

We should totally have some kind of a leaderboard for this just to see how far it can be pushed. I'm going to bet the strongest ship in the game for this would be the Paragon, due to basically unlimited fighting ability only limited by PPT.

[Jang]

Bonus fleet from before my Mora testing: beam Herons! I'd guess this is the first time someone's farmed triple ordos with officered Ion Beam Herons.

Details

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[BigBrainEnergy]

Well this really puts the nail in the coffin for any complaints about carriers being underpowered along with the sd/do fleet and the astral fleet. That being said, bombers could probably use a buff considering all of these fleets prioritize fighters. The bomber payload feels fine in my experience. On the other hand speed, op, and replacement time are all on the table. For those stats bombers are almost universally much worse than fighters and it shows.

[Jang]

Actually, both my Mora and Heron fleets rely on Flash bombers, not fighters. If Flashes didn't exist, I think my non-SD/DO carrier fleets would have to tap out at 2-3 ordos. Daggers just aren't impactful enough and don't apply enough pressure, other bombers seem even worse in these multi-ordo tests, and non-bomber loadouts probably need SD/DO to work well against Remnant. As it is, carriers do seem a little underpowered to me without SD/DO or Flashes, but I wouldn't want carriers buffed in a way that makes SD/DO fighter spam even stronger

[prav]

DO performs very well in general. I find little reason not to take it.

[Jang]

I imagine many people simply do not like flying junkers in their endgame fleet. The idea that the most optimal fleets in the game consist of 5-dmod scrapheaps rubs me the wrong way though I suspect it's true

[Thaago]

I don't really think its true in general - it depends heavily on the ship in question, especially as getting the "perfect" D mods that are usually seen in challenge videos is the product of using console commands to duplicate ships. The lack of a missile D mod, and the ability to 'dodge' fighter D mods, greatly boosts the fighter/missile spam heavy fleets.

[Jang]

Yeah I'm not sure we disagree. I'm not saying 5 d-mods is the best for any individual ship, I'm saying that a fleet using DO to do something like your fighter/missile spam example might be the most powerful kind of fleet the player can make

[Megas]

I imagine many people simply do not like flying junkers in their endgame fleet. The idea that the most optimal fleets in the game consist of 5-dmod scrapheaps rubs me the wrong way though I suspect it's true

So this for me.  I do not tolerate clunkers (with d-mods) in my fleet (except for Hull Restoration to fix), and do not even think about taking Derelict Operations, even when it was stronger and turned some ships into absurd damage sponges in some earlier releases.  D-mods make the fleet look so ugly and... wrong.

Hull Restoration is underpowered, yet I take that skill because it helps prevent d-mods on ships I lose in combat (so that I am not pressured to fight flawlessly), and it removes d-mods from some ships (but not fast enough because I acquire new ships with d-mods faster than Hull Restoration can remove).

[Thaago]

Yeah I'm not sure we disagree. I'm not saying 5 d-mods is the best for any individual ship, I'm saying that a fleet using DO to do something like your fighter/missile spam example might be the most powerful kind of fleet the player can make

Oh I gotcha - yeah I think we do agree after all! My bad