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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24)

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Author Topic: A huge nerf to the missiles  (Read 5831 times)

Buggie

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Re: A huge nerf to the missiles
« Reply #30 on: July 03, 2023, 06:00:48 AM »

Right, their ability to bring more officers than the player are the only thing faction fleets have going for them and even with that they're considered by everyone to be not even a challenge with ordos being the only true thing to do lategame if you want some difficulty, that's why i think if officers are going to nerfed then the number of officers in faction fleets should be increased to compensate.

Of course i know the problems that make faction fleets so weak run much deeper than just officer numbers or bad autofits, this suggestion is more of a bandaid than anything.
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Megas

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Re: A huge nerf to the missiles
« Reply #31 on: July 03, 2023, 06:42:19 AM »

I rather have the game be more challenging by not breaking the rules or cheating.  Fleet breaking the officer cap today is as offensive as breaking the fleet cap years ago, even if there is some plausible deniability with mercs or demon AI cores.  That said, human fleets generally try to honor the caps.  AI core fleets just break it (or follow different rules altogether).

I never felt satisfaction winning a game that was harder only because the enemy cheated.

If the enemy really needs more ships and officers, bring more fleets, not a single fleet that is really a double or greater fleet.  Bounties could start having more than one fleet in a system.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2023, 06:44:57 AM by Megas »
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FooF

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Re: A huge nerf to the missiles
« Reply #32 on: July 03, 2023, 07:32:19 AM »

I kind of like the idea of officers not having access to Combat Capstones, with the caveat that Cybernetic Augmentation should allow them to pick 1. It’s an underutilized skill (to me). Systems Expertise doesn’t seem too bad on more ships but Missile Spec quickly contributes to critical mass of missiles.

With fewer officers sporting Missile Spec, I think that is enough to curb some of the missile power creep. I would also second that Systems Expertise does not compete favorably against Missile Spec for many ships, however, Missile Spec has virtually no use on some.
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S_Eusebio

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Re: A huge nerf to the missiles
« Reply #33 on: July 03, 2023, 08:03:14 AM »

A problem that arise if officers couldn't take combat capstones, is that a missile vessel like the gryphon is gonna run out of missile if you try to engage anything bigger than a single ordo, quite likely. No combat capstones means no Missile spec nor System expertise. So, if a player that is only doing the admiral part (so, not taking active part with a flagship in combat but only giving orders) is gonna be discouraged to bring those ships on a trip to fight ordos. 

I think I would be happy with a system like this only if we still have the ability to pick, let's say, 3 of our 8 officers, and giving them the possibility to take at least a single capstone. Otherwhise, again, some ships are gonna run out of missile mid combat and a gryphon running out of missile is gonna die fast. (It's not only a gryphon problem, other ships like the Dominator are not gonna be happy running out of missile mid combat. The poor Dominator has already been hit from the heavy armour nerf, btw other than the missile rack one)
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BigBrainEnergy

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Re: A huge nerf to the missiles
« Reply #34 on: July 03, 2023, 08:09:45 AM »

A problem that arise if officers couldn't take combat capstones, is that a missile vessel like the gryphon is gonna run out of missile if you try to engage anything bigger than a single ordo.

The gryphon has a system specifically designed for this. With no officer it has 4x missiles ammo, which is better than most ships can get. If the gryphon becomes underpowered without missile spec than you could buff missile autoforge, although I doubt that's necessary.
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S_Eusebio

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Re: A huge nerf to the missiles
« Reply #35 on: July 03, 2023, 08:17:55 AM »

Fair enough for the gryphons, still the dominator, legions, and to a certain extent onslaught are gonna get the short end of the stick with no missile spec, that is a good chunk of their combat effectiveness. Is it necessary in a world where we have already buffed a lot energy weapons and nerfed heavy armour?
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BigBrainEnergy

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Re: A huge nerf to the missiles
« Reply #36 on: July 03, 2023, 08:23:53 AM »

Missiles are already quite strong even without missile spec, that's the point. It's not like heavy armour was purely nerfed either when you can get it without the maneuverability penalty which wasn't an option before. I don't believe there would be a radical change in the viability of any of those ships but it would tilt people away from PCL spam (which is overpowered with missile spec and still good without) and towards breach pods and pilums.
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Grievous69

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Re: A huge nerf to the missiles
« Reply #37 on: July 03, 2023, 08:26:20 AM »

Mfw when Gryphon wouldn't be able to non stop fire missiles at a fleet worth 500 DP:  :o

What BigBrain said, the whole point of the ship is to regen the base amount of missiles. So with EMR now giving you +100% ammo that's 4 times the base ammo. But with Missile Spec and Systems Expertise it goes to 9 times the base ammo. And you think that's completely fine.

We have been so spoiled with missile meta people can't imagine toning it down, this conversation would've been impossible 2-3 patches ago. I can't remember what the old missile combat skill did, but many things changed along with that. EMR going from 75% bonus to 100%, more ships with missile mounts (especially large), missile buffs and reworks, new missiles, all while PD remained pretty much the same, only now getting a few buffs to energy ones. And while we do have IPDAI and the PD combat skill, it's ludicrous to except all your combat ships to have those. It's not like I can put it on only one ship and then expect AI to be smart enough to watch out for missile swarms and intercept them.

This is going to sound like Megas but I do kinda miss the old days when powering up your ship with skills meant making everything it already did better, and giving your piloting skills an even higher ceiling. Now the biggest spikes you get are either defensive or missile based (in rare cases Systems Expertise powers up your ship significantly, you could count such ships on one hand). Ah yes pressing left click to watch the fireworks, such gameplay, wow.

I'll repeat myself again just in case someone doesn't get the wrong idea. Balance wise the current update is probably the best among the all I have played since god knows what version. And I will still relentlessly talk about things which I think could be even better for the game if balanced properly.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2023, 08:27:55 AM by Grievous69 »
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Daynen

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Re: A huge nerf to the missiles
« Reply #38 on: July 03, 2023, 09:17:33 AM »

I must be one of the outliers who don't really favor missiles.  If I get a battleship with lots of ballistics and missile slots, the missiles are the last thing I look at.  They're nice, don't get me wrong; if used at the right time, a missile can swing the battle...but then they get shot down and they run out.  Given some of the absolute GAUNTLETS I've found myself in over the years, I don't favor a weapon system that runs dry mid-battle, no matter how strong it might seem.

Some missile builds are fun.  Sometimes I'll run a falcon P with four atropos launchers for giggles instead of four pilums for carpeting.  If I don't have the hullmods to fill out a capital I might throw a hurricane on a missile slot.  To me they remain support weapons though and in truth, many of them are still better as bombers on carriers, since those DON'T run out.  I'm especially wary of unguided torpedoes; given how absolutely stupid the fleet AI can be at times, I do NOT trust ANY of my AI ships to run hammers or reapers, EVER.  I still shudder thinking of those days...so many battles, completely in the bag, absolutely ruined by one idiotic officer who couldn't stand to finish a battle with a reaper still in the tube...never again.
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llama

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Re: A huge nerf to the missiles
« Reply #39 on: July 03, 2023, 09:20:05 AM »

Also, I would like to ask, are the same people that say that pd is not good enough for blocking missiles, the same people who prefer taking double light autocannon in small slots on their low tech battleships instead of pd choices and then asking why missiles are ruining their day? (or not even putting anything in the small slots in the first place).

Coincidentally the thread I clicked on just before this one was Vanshilar's thread about killing 5 ordos with a Conquest-focused fleet (https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=27471.0)

A fight that requires a ton of endurance (maybe more than you ever need in the unmodified game), but they still get good use out of four Conquests and two Gryphons with all missile slots filled.

But conversely it's totally light on PD, each Conquest has just one Devastator on the weak side. Conquests don't need as much PD as a typical ship thanks to their range and firepower, but still: the opportunity cost of PD is probably too high if it's being passed over for tactical lasers.
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S_Eusebio

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Re: A huge nerf to the missiles
« Reply #40 on: July 03, 2023, 09:48:13 AM »

I think our vision of the game clearly differ from one another.

I personally see no problem with an average dude playing admiral building his fleet and watching his ships killing a double ordos without them having to take part in the combat with a flagship. I would say, this a good feature of the game instead: you can play it with a flaghsip trying to get the more kills, AND you can also, if you so desire, win at the game in the endgame battles with many different ships even if you want to be a "spectator" and "watch the fireworks". I fail to see the problem here.

Again, I don't see what exactly the game has to gain from the possibilty that a person that wants to play the admiral is risking their ships running out of ammos during a battle. That we like it or not, several low tech ships rely heavily on their missile ammunitions to leverage a good chunck of their firepower. A dominator, a manticore, a legion running out of missile in a double ordos fight how are going to enance the experience for anyone? Just beacuse you don't think its a playstile that is about showing a player skill?

Starsector, at its core, it's a single player game meant to be played on iron man mode. How is for a player gonna be a good time wiping out or risking wiping out in a battle because your fleet run out of missiles during the encounter and then your manticore, dominators and legions/whatever are now completely crippled in firepower? I personally wouldn't like to lose my 2 S-modded 240 OP combat fleet beacuse my ships are running out of ammos (which, by the way, if someone is building their ships badly it still probably going to happen), in a patch where balance is already great, and energy weapons received great buffs while low tech has been already getting the short end of the stick.

From my point of view it's better if the player's fleet ends the battle with still some resources to spare (aka still missiles in the bank) instead of dying because ships run out of ammo. Especially in a game meant to be played on iron mode.

PCL spam to good? Then nerf pcl. That weapon has already received a nerf, but I guess it's too meta? Why do we have to gut an entire playstile for this reason?
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Grievous69

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Re: A huge nerf to the missiles
« Reply #41 on: July 03, 2023, 09:53:03 AM »

Why do you keep talking about admiral playstyle? No one in this whole thread mentioned that. You can autopilot any ship in the game, I don't see how a missile nerf is going to ruin that.
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S_Eusebio

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Re: A huge nerf to the missiles
« Reply #42 on: July 03, 2023, 10:02:45 AM »

Because some people here suggested officiers not being able to take capstones skills anymore. Not being able to take missile spec on officiers is gonna have a bad influence on people wanting to play admiral, bringing those ships I already mentioned in their fleet while not actively participating in combat with a flagship
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Thaago

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Re: A huge nerf to the missiles
« Reply #43 on: July 03, 2023, 11:34:50 AM »

TLDR; I've found a moderate investment in PD to be useful for low tech ships vs ordos.

My current thoughts from a low tech playthrough that farmed double ordos for a while without an endgame setup (level 11 main, haven't found more than 3 PCLs total, mixed S mods/officer skills as a lot was experimentation, my skirmishers were A hounds because I wanted to stick to the low tech theme, etc). I was taking the occasional lost ship recovered with a D mod, but I've got the industry skill to repair those and the number of alpha cores rolling in still made it very profitable. I was not trying triple ordos or above, as I was pretty sure I would lose. So thats the context for this:

I found moderate PD to be a useful investment because, while I don't use shield shunt, my ships do get maxed out on flux when they find themselves in a bad situation (Radiant jumping a Dominator, cluster of Apexes, etc), and with moderate PD they can stop moderate missiles (which most enemies have) from stripping their armor, letting the ships last longer.

On my onslaught I am using 2 central flaks, 4 vulcans on the rear arcs (in the medium slots) and 6 dlmgs in the front (for brawling with elite pd). I've got elite PD and S modded turret gyros (mainly for the damage boost vs other targets). With that setup, I can shoot down "normal" missiles: harpoons, pilums, torpedoes, rockets, etc. It can get most of a hurricane, sometimes all, and it can blunt a squall storm but not stop all of them. For me thats an acceptable level of PD for an acceptable investment considering that I'm using the lmgs as assault weapons too.

My wingpilot onslaught doesn't have EPD and neither do all but 1 of my 3 dominators. On the onslaught I'm using an identical PD setup and it works despite the lower range/damage (I'm thinking of swapping the dlmgs for vulcans and removing the flaks/substituting them for more offense as the vulcans take up the slack, but those slots are just SO good for flak). On the dominators  (except for the EPD one) I'm using a vulcan ring as they don't have S mod turret gyros - I had the two side mounts empty for a while but I saw too many skirmishing frigates sinking missiles into the blind spots, the cheeky little buggers.

On the topic of missiles balance: the only missiles I think are currently very out of line are proximity charge launchers. Harpoon spam is more immediately deadly, but is ammo limited in long fights for everything but gryphons, and much lower total DPS (its more a fleet commitment thing). PCLs + elite missile spec on an Onslaught or Dominator is just a brutal amount of DPS, and they have plenty of ammo. Like annihilators +++.
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Goumindong

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Re: A huge nerf to the missiles
« Reply #44 on: July 03, 2023, 11:50:38 AM »

And, finally, for addressing your first point, the fact that low tech vessels needs to rely on smaller/efficient mounts where you could put light autocannons on them instead of pds, for trying to flux out the enemy ships with more efficient weapons, seems more a flaw of how bad (or at least, not good) are some ballistic large mounts. The fact that many low tech ships have so low flux dissipation despite their mounts numbers to fills, and the bad effeciency of several of the large ballistic weapon that have good range, is another matter that should be addressed instead of missile nerf, imho. I don't think I have ever found a ship that can handle HAG (Hephaestus Assault Gun), so I never use the weapons, just for giving an example.
Or, get this, you get more value from having more offensive firepower to kill the enemy ships faster and more efficient, rather than hopelessly trying to stop missile barrages while you spend 20 OP on Vulcans. Don't get me wrong, I mount Vulcans regularly, but Hardened Shields ends me in the same area as if I were to devote to full PD. Yea I still get flux from it, but it's reliable, PD is unreliable.

And everything else you mentioned against low tech costs actual flux to fire, missiles cost zero. We had "rules" for each mount type, to keep the game interesting, but now missiles can realistically achieve everything with some kinetic support since you'll have leftover mounts. You either get a strong missile that's reliable, but has low ammo even with buffs. Strong missile with enough ammo but unreliable. Weak missile that's reliable and has enough ammo. You shouldn't be able to ignore every single weakness with just a single Combat skill and EMR.

I mean. Unless you’re fluxed out PD is pretty reliable. Vulcans and Flack do cost flux but like… 25/second for Vulcans and 50/second for Flack. Single Flack take out all missiles except reapers and squalls in a single hit. And two hits for them even if they have skills. (You need +11.5% net dmg in order to kill skilled reapers/squalls in two volleys with single Flack). Two front facing Flack +a Vulcan or two should more or less clear all missiles pretty handily for 125 flux/second. Now granted every ship cannot field 2 front facing Flack but like…. Those ships can also dodge missiles.

The thing that you actually need to protect your low tech ships from missiles is not better or more PD or cheaper PD for flux. It’s Omni shields(and accelerated is better too). Front facing shields with wide arcs are bad on armor tanking ships. And so when you have them up kinetic pressure flattens them. And now that your flux is super high you cannot spend the flux to defend yourself from missiles when you should have plenty of PD coverage.
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