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Author Topic: Odyssey tweak  (Read 945 times)

Sendrien

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Odyssey tweak
« on: June 29, 2023, 08:17:00 AM »

I think the new Odyssey should have Plasma Jets instead of Plasma Burn. It would make more sense for its role as a mobile capital ship (Battlecruiser) and make it less of a one way in (to die) type of ship. Given that it also has fighter bays, it really makes more sense to have the ability to kite rather than the ability to go in like a Shrike or a Fury.
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Sandor057

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Re: Odyssey tweak
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2023, 09:57:06 AM »

I usually use the Odyssey as my flagship and boy oh boy do I like the current system. It's really useful to quickly close the gap or get to the rear of the enemy.

That being said, I would imagine this suggestion is more oriented towards the AI using this ship, for which, fair enough, I have not yet found a build that doesn't get blown up in any semi-serious engagement (due to Odyssey penetrating way too deep into the enemy fleet). So yeah, bit torn about it. On one hand I'd like the Odyssey not to die in AI hands, while on the other I do like to use (exploit perhaps) its current system.
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Grievous69

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Re: Odyssey tweak
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2023, 10:01:11 AM »

That would make it the most obnoxious capital to fight. Plasma Jets ships have tradeoffs so they aren't stupid strong. Either having less firepower, costing more DP, or just having less base speed. And Odyssey is already super fast for its size.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Odyssey tweak
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2023, 10:26:37 AM »

Odyssey is already one of the best flagships in the game, it doesn't need any buffs IMO. Maybe AI improvements.
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Sendrien

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Re: Odyssey tweak
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2023, 10:42:35 AM »

Plasma Jets ships have tradeoffs so they aren't stupid strong.

To be fair, aren't we talking about a data point of 1, i.e. Aurora? Unless you count the Guardian.

But even so, exactly what tradeoffs are we talking about?
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Sendrien

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Re: Odyssey tweak
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2023, 10:55:01 AM »

That being said, I would imagine this suggestion is more oriented towards the AI using this ship, for which, fair enough, I have not yet found a build that doesn't get blown up in any semi-serious engagement (due to Odyssey penetrating way too deep into the enemy fleet). So yeah, bit torn about it. On one hand I'd like the Odyssey not to die in AI hands, while on the other I do like to use (exploit perhaps) its current system.

You're absolutely right. This suggestion was motivated by the fact that when Odyssey is in the hands of AI, it's basically a one way trip kind of ship. To your point, are you sure you would not be able to use Plasma Jets to achieve a similar flanking effect (albeit taking a bit more time to do so)?

About the issue of player controlled flagships, I maintain that most decent ships in the hands of a player can be built to be "completely broken", so that should not be the aim of balance per se.
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Megas

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Re: Odyssey tweak
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2023, 11:17:15 AM »

To be fair, aren't we talking about a data point of 1, i.e. Aurora? Unless you count the Guardian.
Brawler-TT has Plasma Jets too.

I would be more interested in ships the AI can use competently.  I do not care much if manual control of the flagship is great if AI burns the ship down through misuse.  AI will only use Plasma Burn to charge at the enemy, which is good for catching up and gunning down fleeing enemies that lost the flux war and not much else.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2023, 11:21:00 AM by Megas »
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Buggie

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Re: Odyssey tweak
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2023, 11:39:27 AM »

If the AI is bad with the odyssey make some AI hints so it is forced to make less stupid decisions while piloting it. I am very much against making player ships boring just because the AI is bad with them, thats something that should only be done in extreme scenarios, and i don't think the odyssey is THAT horrible with the AI/overpowered with the player to warrant such a heavy handed change.
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Sendrien

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Re: Odyssey tweak
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2023, 11:41:46 AM »

I think the AI does a decent job using any ship that doesn't have one way ticket type systems. Ships I trust the AI to use to a decent potential are things like the Scarab, Eagle/Falcon, Champion, Aurora, Centurion, Omen, Medusa, etc.

And even ships that have Burn Drive can be made into workable ships for the AI to pilot when combined with armor and the right weapon loadout. Even the Vanguard with its Damper Field is a good option.

But when you have a high tech ship whose only mechanism is to go in, (Shrike, Fury, Odyssey, etc), its almost a guaranteed D-Mod in the hands of the AI. In fact, when I fight against TT fleets, I often target exactly these types of ships first, as they are easy to kill. Cannon fodder, essentially. Which is sad for a ship like the venerable Odyssey.
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Sendrien

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Re: Odyssey tweak
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2023, 11:43:44 AM »

If the AI is bad with the odyssey make some AI hints so it is forced to make less stupid decisions while piloting it. I am very much against making player ships boring just because the AI is bad with them, thats something that should only be done in extreme scenarios, and i don't think the odyssey is THAT horrible with the AI/overpowered with the player to warrant such a heavy handed change.

A tweak to swap one mobility based system for another is far less heavy-handed than changing the Odyssey away from a High Energy Focus ship (which is what it used to be)
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TaLaR

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Re: Odyssey tweak
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2023, 11:54:24 AM »

No, Odyssey is the only ship that makes good use of Plasma Burn. Fury and Shrike do it much worse due to not being broadside (though a small broadside ship wouldn't work anyway). Plasma Burn is stronger and more fun for player piloted Odyssey.

And AI-wise, I'd rather want to see AI making better use of ship systems in general, PB included.

In old times when Odyssey had HEF, it also could converge all 3 large slots on single target. Was a bit annoying to pilot due to the narrow and offset-to-side sweetspot, but 3TL HEF Odyssey was a very good kite-and-snipe ship. For player. AI obviously didn't do that, as always.

AI makes quite terrible use of Scarab (wastes most uptime, needs to be much more aggressive with system active) or Medusa's system though (skimmer is much better used to dodge, catch venting enemy or circle behind them, than wasting limited charges on simple approach/retreat).
« Last Edit: June 29, 2023, 12:03:31 PM by TaLaR »
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Sendrien

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Re: Odyssey tweak
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2023, 06:17:45 AM »

And AI-wise, I'd rather want to see AI making better use of ship systems in general, PB included.

What changes would you like to see?

Because of the binary nature of Plasma Burn, either the AI uses it, or it doesn't. Since right now, using it gets the AI into trouble, the only other option is not using it. Which means that the system would essentially be useless for the AI.
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TaLaR

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Re: Odyssey tweak
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2023, 11:32:54 AM »

Core issue is that AI doesn't adjust it's actions to make better use of PB (or any other system) possible. It either activates PB to improve what it was it going to do anyway (move forward toward the enemy), or doesn't.

Player can use PB to dodge shots (reducing flux levels somewhat in process - drop shield while dodging, makes you smaller target and frees up shield upkeep), to retreat (if approaching too strong enemy in reverse-broadside, when you know you can't win in one round), to get behind an enemy, to slingshot projectiles beyond normal range (with Plasma cannons), etc. Using PB only to approach enemies is complete waste of system's potential. And AI isn't good even at that (proper timing to catch a venting phase ship, a Medusa out of charges, etc).
« Last Edit: June 30, 2023, 11:36:36 AM by TaLaR »
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Siffrin

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Re: Odyssey tweak
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2023, 03:39:12 AM »

No thanks, I don't want to make the Odyssey boring.
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eert5rty7u8i9i7u6yrewqdef

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Re: Odyssey tweak
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2023, 01:02:09 AM »

Two autopulse lasers, two gazers, one locust, one breech, one mining pod, one xyphos, max caps, hardened shields, ITU, expanded missile racks, expanded magazines, flux coil adjunct and resistant flux conduits, is my current Odyssey build that can handle its DP in everything. It can win with 0 hull damage vs an Onslaught or frigates. If the A.I. plays intelligently, it can beat a conquest with minimal hull damage, and any combination of cruisers. If it plays poorly, (refuses to back off despite being able to do so), it can be a coin flip. It will always win vs destroyers from what I've seen, but always takes notable damage.
This is the only useful A.I. controlled short range Odyssey build that I've found so far.

The current A.I. behavior for Plasma Burn is absolutely required for this build to function. The Odyssey goes in, dumps it damage, and then backs off before hitting max flux, vents, and then double plasma burns back into range of the autopulse lasers. This grinds down the Onslaught over multiple runs, allows it to stay caught up to the Conquest, and provides a method of guaranteeing kills against frigates and destroyers.
Plasma jets would struggle or flat out not allow this build to work as PB seems to get cover more distance than PJ does.

I would not be against changing how PB works so it can propel ships backwards. This would fix most of the A.I. issues, without compromising the few good short-range builds that these ships have. Also, telling a ship with PB to directly retreat still causes it to use its system regardless of the direction it's facing so PB A.I. as a whole is buggy and needs some work.
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