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Author Topic: 5 Invictus vs 5 Ordo win Gold Edition: winning without Omega weapons  (Read 4337 times)

CapnHector

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Re: 5 Invictus vs 5 Ordo (attempt)
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2023, 10:22:53 AM »

I think you guys are simply underrating the Devastator.

Can someone confirm this for me - because it looks like the "minimum range" of the Devastator is affected by weapon range modifiers? You can clearly see it at 3:00, with the bottom Invictus(the one partially off-screen) firing at the Glimmer. None of the Devastator shots land even close to the Invictus. I didn't even know that was the case, and I wonder how intended it is...

I thought it was a basic fact of life that that is how it works. The randomness comes from the shotRangeVariance parameter in devastator_shot.proj but I'd be lying if I said I understand it. We need help from some modder, but searching I could only find https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=19253.msg300420#msg300420. However it's quite clear that increasing Devastator range also makes the shots explode at a longer range, so it seems like a match made in heaven with LIDAR which has recoil reduction too.

If you look at the damage screens it does very good damage while also working as defense simultaneously.
Something like two-thirds of the guns in your fleet are Devastator Cannons; if they were not dealing "very good damage" despite being fielded in those numbers then either they'd have to be highly specialized or they'd be almost worthless, maybe both.

Yeah, the salient number to look at is that they did most of the armor work even in the capship part of the fight, which should be mostly a test of frontal firepower at long range, as opposed to Gauss being forced to do everything. I basically looked at results from a 4 Ordo fight and concluded they are doing enough work while also functioning as defense, which is important when using the LIDAR array. I don't have any science about that last part, it's just a feeling from trying different setups that I occasionally see enemy missiles coming in at very unfortunate times, and in these 5 Ordo fights maximizing ship durability while also dealing enough damage to win is the design goal.
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5 ships vs 5 Ordos: Executor · Invictus · Paragon · Astral · Legion · Onslaught · Odyssey | Video LibraryHiruma Kai's Challenge

Void Ganymede

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Re: 5 Invictus vs 5 Ordo WIN!
« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2023, 12:22:08 PM »

Now this is Low Tech.

It looks like there's two important phases: multidirectional FF/DD/CA removal, then a frontal slugfest versus heavies. I wonder if it's possible to specialize 2/5 ships for frontal kinetic brawl and micro them in reserve as fire support during the initial swarm phase. The other 3/5 lean into turning agility and all-directional heavy devastator PD. All 5 participate in all phases, but the brawl ships hopefully retain frontal armor for the Radiants. (It's surprising that such a small number of ships form such an effective unflankable battle line.)

Are the Broadsword wings doing much? There's not much focus on missiles and they're not massed enough for serious kinetic damage. Claw/Thunder to speed up frigate removal? Xyphos to pad the lack of EMP?

Hellbore's high per-shot damage gives armor punchthrough leading to deceptively high DPS against armor and hull. I'd be worried about using it long-range, though, especially with the range mismatch with Gauss. Mark IX is actually really well-suited to hardpoint mounts like this and the Dominator's: it's effectively a burst fire weapon that gets good value of limited time on target. Dual Gauss is ridiculously cool at max range but gets limited uptime while swung around by ship movements up close, so you end up brute forcing shields with Devastators.

How does elite Point Defense +200 range interact with the ship system? This is *effectively* an offensive point defense equivalent of the LMG Lasher or HMG Enforcer.
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CapnHector

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Re: 5 Invictus vs 5 Ordo WIN!
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2023, 02:02:50 PM »

Correct, these 5 Ordo fights essentially are two parters, first part being frigate and destroyer (as well as Brilliant) spam, second part being Apex spam into multiple Radiants at once. It's the ultimate challenge for a ship because you must be able to handle everything. My strategy here even conveniently splits the fight into the two since I retreat in the middle to preserve CR and reset hull regeneration.

The suggestion about having different layouts for different phases of the fight is kind of interesting and I'm thinking about whether it's workable. There's one problem that the ship can handle a barrage of 2 Gauss and then vent, but it can't handle a 4 Gauss barrage for 5 seconds unless you add a lot of caps I think. These ships have 1225 dissipation, so you'll need 6000 more flux capacity to be able to fire the burst - that's 30 capacitors. So to make a ship with more kinetic firepower you'd  have to give up range in one way or another by giving up a range enhancing skill or switching to a more efficient but shorter range gun, which is not great because Gauss is there specifically because shorter range guns falter in the Apex and Radiant phase (Apexes can back away and Radiants can outrange and kite you - you don't have ITU so your range outside LIDAR burst will be 1350, shorter than Tachyon + ITU even without skills, while with Gauss + skills you have 1800, note I'm assuming LIDAR boosts base range only in these calculations).

The main thing about this build is you have really limited choice for skills. Combat Endurance, Damage Control and Impact Mitigation are compulsory (what, you are not going to take -25% damage taken with extra perks? Even the Damage Control Reaper resistance is good here), likewise Target Analysis is always obligatory. So that leaves 2 skills. I'd argue you just go for the range and +damage on all of your guns. You might take Point Defense over Gunnery Implants if the +200 range works with Devastator + LIDAR though. Still I think the ships do in fact need and use all of their Gauss range, there is a lot of sniping going on in this video. For a good example see the Nova snipe at 03.19.

It shouldn't be necessary though as this fight could be won without losses if I had just micro'd the CGR Rewards of Devotion a little more actively out of the front line. It really shouldn't have been in the corner when it died. I'm also not certain, looking at it, that it couldn't be done just swapping the Resonator for a Locust. Just play it really well and be really sharp the whole time and never leave the tactical screen. Since the ships did have some fight left in them.

I'm not convinced about the shorter range guns because I did try with them, but I'll be very happy to be proven wrong about this! The fighters though, you could definitely test if Thunder is better. The thing they really need to do is keep flux up on Apexes and Radiants and I think the Broadswords do accomplish that to an extent looking at the video. At least in sim duels Thunders do in fact do it better though. Don't want to put anything with a shield in this fleet since shields are the devil.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2023, 02:08:50 PM by CapnHector »
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5 ships vs 5 Ordos: Executor · Invictus · Paragon · Astral · Legion · Onslaught · Odyssey | Video LibraryHiruma Kai's Challenge

Megas

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Re: 5 Invictus vs 5 Ordo (attempt)
« Reply #18 on: June 29, 2023, 02:06:53 PM »

I wonder if the variance used by Devastator is also used by Volatile Particle Driver.
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CapnHector

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Re: 5 Invictus vs 5 Ordo (attempt)
« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2023, 02:12:14 PM »

I wonder if the variance used by Devastator is also used by Volatile Particle Driver.

According to vpdriver_shot.proj, yes. Although with a different number, in vpdriver we have
Spoiler
Code
	"behaviorSpec":{"behavior":"PROXIMITY_FUSE",
"shotRangeVariance":0.5,
"probOfVariance":0.5,
"range":0,
"explosionSpec":{"duration":0.12f,
"radius":15,
"coreRadius":0, # full damage within core radius - also equal to proximity fuse range
"collisionClass":NONE,
"collisionClassByFighter":NONE,
"particleSizeMin":3.0,
"particleSizeRange":2.0,
"particleDuration":2,
"particleCount":11,
"particleColor":[150,225,250,255],
"explosionColor":[150,225,250,125],
"sound":"vpdriver_explode_before_max_range"
},
},

[close]

when with Devastator it is

Spoiler
Code
	"behaviorSpec":{"behavior":"PROXIMITY_FUSE",
"shotRangeVariance":0.75,
"range":25,
"explosionSpec":{"duration":0.12f,
"radius":55,
"coreRadius":30, # full damage within core radius - at least equal to proximity fuse range
"collisionClass":PROJECTILE_FF,
"collisionClassByFighter":PROJECTILE_FIGHTER,
"particleSizeMin":7.0,
"particleSizeRange":4.0,
"particleDuration":2,
"particleCount":25,
"particleColor":[255,225,125,255],
"explosionColor":[255,225,125,125],
"sound":"devastator_explosion"},
}

[close]

Now we just need someone to explain what that means.
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5 ships vs 5 Ordos: Executor · Invictus · Paragon · Astral · Legion · Onslaught · Odyssey | Video LibraryHiruma Kai's Challenge

Hatter

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Re: 5 Invictus vs 5 Ordo WIN!
« Reply #20 on: June 29, 2023, 02:47:49 PM »

I think-
"shotRangeVariance":0.75, - variance takes place in the latter 75% of the the range
"probOfVariance":0.5, - variance has a 50% chance to occur, defaults to 100% chance.


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CapnHector

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Re: 5 Invictus vs 5 Ordo WIN!
« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2023, 06:27:10 AM »

By the grace of Ludd, I managed to actually do this same 5 Ordo combat without Omega weapons. Youtube link in the OP. This one might take a while to process though, it is a movie length video because I played at 1x speed. Here is the build I used.



Credit where credit is due! Thank you
  • Grievous, for telling me the missiles are a trap. It took me a while to believe you, but eventually I did.
  • Lawrence, for telling me the thing that goes well with Gauss is more Gauss.
  • Void Ganymede, for suggesting another variant for close combat vs frigate swarms. I eventually figured that I have this variant built in my ship already. I just need to show my butt to the enemy with a Direct Retreat order.
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crvt

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Re: 5 Invictus vs 5 Ordo win Gold Edition: winning without Omega weapons
« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2023, 08:20:05 AM »

That's a nice set of gauss. And +1 on not going for missiles on such long engagements.
The direct retreat to make the ship turn around on purpose is an incredible idea.


Side question - any tips on how to engage 5 Ordo's at once?
For some reason, when going for a 5 capital ships fleet, I'm only getting to fight 3 at most, even when I'm surround on all sides by good 8+ remnant fleets,
I remember being able to engage 4 at once with a fleet that had 12 combat ships in it without much issue, is the player ship count related?

I also tried modifying the `battleJoinRange` config, but that didn't do anything(if I set it incredibly high, I engage the station that isn't even on the screen, and then I can fight station + every Ordo...but if I'm not in range of station, it is still 3 at once at most).

Is there any other setting I need to change?
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BaBosa

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Re: 5 Invictus vs 5 Ordo win Gold Edition: winning without Omega weapons
« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2023, 08:28:53 AM »

It was mentioned in another thread that there is a mercy rule where if you have much fewer fleet points than the enemy, more won't join. CapnHector changes the fleet points value in ship_data.csv for the Zig to a really high number to deal with that.
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CapnHector

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Re: 5 Invictus vs 5 Ordo win Gold Edition: winning without Omega weapons
« Reply #24 on: July 02, 2023, 08:31:44 AM »

That's a nice set of gauss. And +1 on not going for missiles on such long engagements.
The direct retreat to make the ship turn around on purpose is an incredible idea.

Thanks! I really like just looking at the Gauss spam. It's pretty. Also it's 4200 kinetic DPS coming in at a very long range with a hit strength of 350 vs armor during the LIDAR burst, and it's going to hit one spot on the armor, so that's nice. If you're not on the receiving end.

Quote
Side question - any tips on how to engage 5 Ordo's at once?
For some reason, when going for a 5 capital ships fleet, I'm only getting to fight 3 at most, even when I'm surround on all sides by good 8+ remnant fleets,
I remember being able to engage 4 at once with a fleet that had 12 combat ships in it without much issue, is the player ship count related?

I also tried modifying the `battleJoinRange` config, but that didn't do anything(if I set it incredibly high, I engage the station that isn't even on the screen, and then I can fight station + every Ordo...but if I'm not in range of station, it is still 3 at once at most).

Is there any other setting I need to change?

You must either haul more ships with you, even big civilian ships may do depending on your fleet and / or increase fleet points in Starsector/starsector-core/data/hulls/ship_data.csv to bypass the game's mercy mechanics. I even hauled a Ziggurat with no weapons with me for the Executor fleet, but then I needed to increase even that thing's FP to be allowed to fight 5 at once IIRC. Eventually since I was tweaking the ships anyway I just set Prometheus FP to 36 from 12. Note this will affect autoresolve strength so change it back after the fight. The Zig is nice since you don't need to worry about that as it only occurs in your fleet.

If you want to do it without tweaking files, then you should bring a lot of high FP ships. I think the best would be Prometheus Mk. II since that has naturally 20 FP and has civilian grade hull, so won't be detrimental to your fleet skills. A fleet of 30 Prometheus Mk. II would be allowed to fight 4 Ordos at once I think, not sure.
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Void Ganymede

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Re: 5 Invictus vs 5 Ordo win Gold Edition: winning without Omega weapons
« Reply #25 on: July 02, 2023, 04:51:55 PM »

God damn, these things really are omnidirectional aren't they? That direct retreat trick is amazing. Canceling the retreat burn is like a burn drive in reverse.

Watching them shred smaller ships while outnumbered then use the wreckage as ablative armor from missile volleys is amazing. Ditto for canister flak and devastators removing entire fighter swarms in one burst.

Lot of whiffed gauss shots, but can't tell if that's hardpoints and a lack of agility or low aiming accuracy. Low agility might even be helping spread damage away from the all-important front.

Broadsword replacement rate get shredded in first phase :< Recovers a little on the 1st retreat, but front line ships still go down to 30-40%. Same during 3rd retreat... But then you enter phase 2 against the first two Radiants with fresh wings! 8-10% kinetic damage tally for them in the end, which ain't bad but ain't great. Probably still room to experiment with carrier skills and Thunders/Xyphos.

Phase 2 around 49 minutes is spicy. I was dubious about 4 gauss due to how ridiculously hot ships were running phase 1, but...
Spoiler
[close]
Retreating on first spotted Radiant then bouncing them off a freshly-formed battle line is clean. I wonder if IX+Hellbore or EMP fighters would help stop their retreats and vents, but it takes so long to reach phase 2 and there's so many variables leading to it that'll be hard to test.

Final crew death toll:
- 1200 1st retreat
- 660 2nd retreat
- 670 3rd retreat
- 5500 victory (1x Invictus disabled)
- total: 8 colonies not founded RIP heroes you're with Ludd now.
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CapnHector

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Re: 5 Invictus vs 5 Ordo win Gold Edition: winning without Omega weapons
« Reply #26 on: July 02, 2023, 10:24:20 PM »

God damn, these things really are omnidirectional aren't they? That direct retreat trick is amazing. Canceling the retreat burn is like a burn drive in reverse.

Watching them shred smaller ships while outnumbered then use the wreckage as ablative armor from missile volleys is amazing. Ditto for canister flak and devastators removing entire fighter swarms in one burst.

Lot of whiffed gauss shots, but can't tell if that's hardpoints and a lack of agility or low aiming accuracy. Low agility might even be helping spread damage away from the all-important front.

Broadsword replacement rate get shredded in first phase :< Recovers a little on the 1st retreat, but front line ships still go down to 30-40%. Same during 3rd retreat... But then you enter phase 2 against the first two Radiants with fresh wings! 8-10% kinetic damage tally for them in the end, which ain't bad but ain't great. Probably still room to experiment with carrier skills and Thunders/Xyphos.

Phase 2 around 49 minutes is spicy. I was dubious about 4 gauss due to how ridiculously hot ships were running phase 1, but...
Spoiler
[close]
Retreating on first spotted Radiant then bouncing them off a freshly-formed battle line is clean. I wonder if IX+Hellbore or EMP fighters would help stop their retreats and vents, but it takes so long to reach phase 2 and there's so many variables leading to it that'll be hard to test.

Final crew death toll:
- 1200 1st retreat
- 660 2nd retreat
- 670 3rd retreat
- 5500 victory (1x Invictus disabled)
- total: 8 colonies not founded RIP heroes you're with Ludd now.

Thank you! I am going to lift that as the official writeup for this video. I did in fact experiment with Gladius but went back to Broadsword due to replacement rate being worse. Thunder would likely have the same problem. Now that you mention it though, switching 1 skill point from Coordinated Maneuvers to Carrier Group for +75% fighter replacement rate for the Invictus at a cost of -11% fleet top speed would likely be better. The other skills are basically necessary and can't be switched.

Fun thing: that Radiant is facing 4*4*3*350*1.3*1.1 = 24 024 kinetic DPS. Shields... should have just brought 11 000 armor like I did  ::)

For anyone wondering here's how you use Burn Drive on the Invictus:
https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkx5ogkypAHceIICyCa-OxKo3ANAVhU-LNE

Here's another nice clip of what happens when an Apex meets 36 Gauss Cannons:
https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxJfZYMIIezEN5_QDLWsC3pBYuyd1fE0tS
« Last Edit: July 02, 2023, 10:45:18 PM by CapnHector »
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Jang

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Re: 5 Invictus vs 5 Ordo win Gold Edition: winning without Omega weapons
« Reply #27 on: July 02, 2023, 11:03:16 PM »

Have you noticed any difference in camping the center bottom of the map vs one of the bottom corners instead? Excuse me if you already answered this somewhere
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CapnHector

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Re: 5 Invictus vs 5 Ordo win Gold Edition: winning without Omega weapons
« Reply #28 on: July 02, 2023, 11:10:26 PM »

Have you noticed any difference in camping the center bottom of the map vs one of the bottom corners instead? Excuse me if you already answered this somewhere

It depends on your ship. If you look at the 5 Paragons vs 5 Ordos video for example you can see my preferred strategy is do a fighting retreat to one of the corners. This is the superior strategy if your ship can handle it, a fighting retreat encourages the enemy AI to overcommit so I like it on the Executor and Paragon, and the corner limits their mobility. However, the Invictus does less well with that strategy, because it is very slow and it can't tank shots without taking permanent damage unlike the Paragon, and needs other ships around it. So, an Invictus being separated from the group during a fighting retreat or travel to the corner is too much of a risk to take and that's why we fight in the center.
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