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Author Topic: Destroying 5 Ordos with 5 Gigacannon Executors (The Dream Battle: Revengeance)  (Read 11492 times)

crvt

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I did test S-modded expanded Magazines + 2x Autopulses + 4x lances.
I'm still not sure if it is better than lasers to get through armor, but Autopulses did okay. Their shorter range often makes it so that they start to fire once the target ship is already heavily fluxed, and they do okay job at cutting through armor.
Didn't feel like it needed heavy maulers. Was enough to go through a 1944 ordo without retreating, but it wasn't a pure Executor fleet. The Executors did all right in it.

It also may be fine to bring 1x Autopulse and 1x HIL, actually.

But yeah S-modded expanded magazines increase your flux spending a ton. It can lead to great bursts most of the times, but mistakes are more likely to result in a dead ship, too.
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Genir

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>4x IR Autolance
>S-modded Advanced Turret Gyros
>Non-contributing slots left empty
>No PD/1 PD gun to fix AI behavior

Wow I love these builds, it's actually perfect.

It's one of the most cursed things I've ever seen, up to and including the image artifacts. If I saw it without context I'd be certain it's a meme.

If THAT can beat five Ordo then I feel like everything I know about the game is wrong.

Why is that? I get the s-moded ADF, but the reset?
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Rudragun

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Quote
What a curious mix of kinetics up front! Cool

And it's not random.

Needler is efficient and quickly drops shields. But adding more than one causes enemy to keep its shields up between bursts - and we want the shields down for HIL to do its job.

Autocannon has good DPS and because of constant stream of rounds keeps the enemy shield down. But Autocannons in hybrid slots underperforms because of poor range and accuracy.

Driver doesn't suffer the range and accuracy problem and it really snipes frigates! Also, for some reason, kiting enemies keep themselves outside Autocannon range, but feel safe in the Driver range. For their own detriment.

Seconding that this is a very interesting build! Reminds me of a thread about pre-nerf Eradicators (https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=23921.msg356197) where pponmypupu had good success with a combination of 1000 range medium kinetic and HE and 800 range small kinetic.

Since the Redacted are so aggressive, having two range-bands of kinetics can be very good. From what I've seen, they will charge into your short-range kinetics, get high on flux, and then can't get themselves unstuck without dropping shields because they can't afford to take the longer-range kinetics on the shields. Then your 1000 range HE and frag get a field day because that ship still can't drop shields until they're out of range of everything because of the HVDs.

Quote
Pilum catapult might be worth a try

I tried it, but it didn't do much in my opinion. Locust was better, especially for frigates. But in the end, I prefer to invest OP in non-missile stuff.

Leaving off missiles makes sense to me. You've got 2 large weapons and 9 mediums. Even the new Pilum LRM Catapult would cost you 28 OP on an already overfluxed loadout, and the extra frag damage would be totally redundant with the four High Energy Focus IR Autolances. (Plus, missiles can be shot down!) Squalls run counter to your kinetic plan of letting the Remnant get close, and Hurricane MIRVs are again redundant with HEF HIL + IR Autolance.

Locusts seem not worth 36 OP here, even if you left off expanded missile racks and missile specialization. Like you said, they're good against frigates, but they basically bring nothing else to the build since they're fragmentation and you have plenty of that.
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Thaago

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Missiles are interesting for this particular challenge as killing 5 Ordos takes so long. For normal ship building I'd say always put on missiles, even if just cheap ones, because they are flux-free damage and something like a locust can last most fights with no skills or hullmods. But for these its kind of 'full investment or none' as going into the latter half of the ordo fight down ~36 OP (or more) with no ammo left is rough.
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CapnHector

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There's one particular reason why you might want Locusts even though they will run out in a 5 Ordo.

Specifically, these fights go in well defined phases which are frigate spam (and Novas and Brilliants) - destroyer spam (and Brilliants) - Brilliants - Apexes - Radiants. In fact those phases are clear enough that you can plan some of your strategy around them. So if you are struggling with frigate spam but will be fine if you make it past it, then adding Locust will help because it'll add relevant firepower in the frigate phase. That's why I originally wanted it both on the Invictus and here despite it running out.

On the Invictus, though, I eventually gave it up for the no Omega weapons 5 Ordo build since you can't really waste 36 OP even if it's helpful initially, deciding to just take the pain and improve my ability to kill the other ships after the frigate phase instead. Now I haven't gotten back to Executors but if you can do anything else to make frigate spam easier (e.g. ATG - this should always go in anyway, killing speed is a big concern; auxiliary thrusters or movement skills, just more accurate guns like going to HVD or Railgun, just to name a few things) that also helps you throughout the fight then that is definitely better. I ended up empty missile on Invictus, 166 frag DPS from slow unreliable missiles from Pilum catapult I don't see as doing much to an Ordo even if it comes with EMP.

The shorter range kinetics in hardpoints and HVD in hybrid turrets is very workable. I originally ended up switching to 5 x HVD because I was having trouble killing Apexes though since those can maintain their distance pretty well if it's just a capital chasing. I wonder if these builds have issues with Apexes?
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Draba

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Even the new Pilum LRM Catapult would cost you 28 OP on an already overfluxed loadout, and the extra frag damage would be totally redundant with the four High Energy Focus IR Autolances.
The point is not the damage, it's the missiles changing how the enemy behaves.
Enemies often raise omni on the opposite side, wastes flux dissipation on PD, your ships don't get swarmed nearly as hard when a few dozen pilums are in the air.
Matters a lot more for pure Executor fleets, but if you have something else to help some extra capacity might be even easier to give up (more than enough OP to get everything you want+max vents and lots of caps, usually with distributor on top).
Getting some missile hits is nice ofc, mainly for the EMP.


Specifically, these fights go in well defined phases which are frigate spam (and Novas and Brilliants) - destroyer spam (and Brilliants) - Brilliants - Apexes - Radiants.
And Scintilla spam, but everybody seems to avoid fleets with too many of those :)
The little buggers are happy to play keepaway until their CR is gone, chasing a bunch of them blocking bigger enemies spawning is the hardest part of these PPT-focused battles.


The shorter range kinetics in hardpoints and HVD in hybrid turrets is very workable. I originally ended up switching to 5 x HVD because I was having trouble killing Apexes though since those can maintain their distance pretty well if it's just a capital chasing. I wonder if these builds have issues with Apexes?
I've found Apex to be the easiest enemies for Excutor by far: no mobility, no burst damage, outranged by capital kinetics even without ballistic mastery(but get ballistic mastery :) ), dunked on by HIL.
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Genir

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Since the Redacted are so aggressive, having two range-bands of kinetics can be very good. From what I've seen, they will charge into your short-range kinetics, get high on flux, and then can't get themselves unstuck without dropping shields because they can't afford to take the longer-range kinetics on the shields. Then your 1000 range HE and frag get a field day because that ship still can't drop shields until they're out of range of everything because of the HVDs.

Admittedly, two range bands is more of a coincidence in my case. I would be happy with Autocannons in the hybrid slots, if it weren't for their poor range and accuracy (ok, it would still be two range bands, but you know what I mean).

The engagement plan is in fact rather crude and doesn't rely that much on specific weapon ranges: Remnant charges in range of all kinetics, looses shields and is cut down by the beams. Ideally the enemy dies before it has time to react and retreat. We don't have time for chases or repeatedly depleting shields on the same ship. HVD range comes in play mostly when some cowardly Remnant feels like kiting.

And Scintilla spam, but everybody seems to avoid fleets with too many of those :)
The little buggers are happy to play keepaway until their CR is gone, chasing a bunch of them blocking bigger enemies spawning is the hardest part of these PPT-focused battles.

Don't pick fights, you need to be able to deal with everything the Remnants throw at you. As for Scintillas, I had the same problem. They were so annoying and could completely disrupt the battle progress. Now I barely notice them. What changed is my frigate control - I have two control groups of 3 LP Brawlers. Each group stays together and gets one Eliminate order. It's sooo easy to gun down Scintillas with those two Brawler squads it's almost sad. The second, funny thing is my current Executor setup is actually faster than Scintilla!

The shorter range kinetics in hardpoints and HVD in hybrid turrets is very workable. I originally ended up switching to 5 x HVD because I was having trouble killing Apexes though since those can maintain their distance pretty well if it's just a capital chasing. I wonder if these builds have issues with Apexes?

As Draba said, Apex Wall is by far the easiest and fastest part of Ordo fight. I let my Execs loose when fighting Apexes, no Defend or waypoint order. Execs effectively follow the Apex wall and usually concentrate fire in pairs on a single Apex. There is no chasing - Apex loses shields and pops in about 3 or 4 seconds under 4 or even 6 HILs. If one manages to retreat though (especially a SO one), let it go. It'll get back on its own, and with already weakened hull, will pop in 1 second instead of 3.
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CapnHector

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Yeah frigates are the natural solution to the Scintilla buildup. Had to resort to mopping up them with Wolves for the Astral fight due to the fact that PPT is limited.

I think I figured it out why I had trouble killing Apexes fast with range 700 guns (IIRC anyway) and you guys didn't. Since my builds didn't run Gunnery Implants, they were actually outranged by the Apexes unlike using HVD.

Now based on my later experience I agree that you should basically focus on offense and definitely run at least GI. Durability issues can be mitigated by tight formation control which was doable for the Astral and Invictus so is likely here too.
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Lawrence Master-blaster

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Speaking of missiles changing AI, I'll just throw it out here:

I was testing a 3x Pegasus fleet the other day(which failed) and noticed that enemy ships will vent in front of a 2x Squall 2x Locust but not in front of a 2x Squall 2x Hydra, presumably because the latter is technically anti-armor. Given that Hydra has 2500 range that's a pretty big "area of effect".

The Hydras in general performed okay, which is a lot better than I thought they would, and amazingly lasted longer than the Squalls did(the fact I ran out of Squalls is why the test was a failure. It's funny how FMR makes Pegasus worse) Definitely would suggest trying them over Locusts if all you need is to kill frigates/destroyers and not fighters.
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Draba

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The second, funny thing is my current Executor setup is actually faster than Scintilla!
Scintillas generally(always?) run around with 85% CR and elite helmsmanship.
Much faster than executors, especially when they can drop everything and get to ~135 speed retreating.

Don't pick fights, you need to be able to deal with everything the Remnants throw at you. As for Scintillas, I had the same problem. They were so annoying and could completely disrupt the battle progress. Now I barely notice them. What changed is my frigate control - I have two control groups of 3 LP Brawlers. Each group stays together and gets one Eliminate order. It's sooo easy to gun down Scintillas with those two Brawler squads it's almost sad.
That works, right up until you actually try it against a big bunch of frigates and 15+ scintillas :)
If you can win against a 2000-ish stack that has those I'd like to see it.
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crvt

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Re: The Dream Battle, Updated: 5 Executors defeating 5 Remnant Ordos video
« Reply #100 on: July 14, 2023, 07:30:56 AM »

Facing a large army of frigates and/or scintillas, I like to do a fighting retreat from the top of the map to the bottom. That pretty much ensures that:
- I don't get badly surrounded
- I don't get ganked up on by fighters
- I don't lose out on killing speed early on, e.g. I can usually collapse on the initial deployed force with my capitals from 2 sides; and then the northern side turns around to deal with the reinforcements. Initial kills get quickly replaced by fresh enemies, so my ships get full uptime on their guns.
- As I retreat further backwards, the reinforcements for Remnant take longer to reach the front line, giving some breathing room during frigate phase
- Generally, this means that I end up killing Scintillas as I come back up from south to north, after dealing with the frigates.

There isn't that many of them alive by that point, though. I think their AI moves them into capital gun range, when they're giving chase; and they seldom make it out. By the time I'm done killing Brilliants and Apexes get to come out, there's maybe 1-2 random Scintilla remaining.

On another note, I was running 2x Executor 2x Radiant, and I gave each of the Radiants one Paladin PD. They're entirely capable of spending their flux and more while using one of the slots on the PD, and with s-modded Extended Magazines it isn't actually bad damage(mediocre range soft flux energy, but efficient).
The thing deletes fighters and missiles very fast, which also makes the ship AI not fire the big guns on the small stuff, not turn around unnecessary; overall while it didn't feel like a mandatory addition, it enhanced ship behavior to where it made better use of the rest. For example, swapping the PD for another Autopulse or HIL was not an improvement. Over the entire engagement one PD would kill 300-400 missiles and 80+ fighters, over half the fighters and 80%+ of the missiles the entire ship would destroy.
And it trivialized dealing with fighters. Maybe those Scintillas would make it out of capital range, if Radiants were wasting more time hitting fighters with beams and Autopulses.
Not sure if there's something like that that could fit on an Executor, though. I wouldn't want to use something as a PD if it wasn't capable of clearing fighters / missiles before ship decides to turn in that direction and fire main guns there.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2023, 07:38:39 AM by crvt »
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CapnHector

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Re: The Dream Battle, Updated: 5 Executors defeating 5 Remnant Ordos video
« Reply #101 on: July 16, 2023, 03:32:49 PM »

Guys I just beat 5 Ordos (2054 DP, 4 Radiant 6 Nova) with 5 Executors (and 4 Drams) using a Gigacannon build and no Omega weapons. It was awesome.

It became a movie length battle, uploading as we speak. Here is the build. The hullmod not visible is Hardened Subsystems.


Edit: video is up and processing! I updated it in the OP too.

The Gigacannon actually works really well in this build. Where it struggles is smaller and agile ships which you can see in the video. That is to a large extent mitigated if you can install an ECCM package though, in which case the Pilums are much more effective at anti-swarming, but I didn't have room because without Hardened Subsystem the timer runs out at the Radiants.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2023, 04:13:01 PM by CapnHector »
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eert5rty7u8i9i7u6yrewqdef

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Anything special on the weapon grouping for your latest fight?
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Draba

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Re: The Dream Battle, Updated: 5 Executors defeating 5 Remnant Ordos video
« Reply #103 on: July 16, 2023, 04:33:54 PM »

Guys I just beat 5 Ordos (2054 DP, 4 Radiant 6 Nova) with 5 Executors (and 4 Drams) using a Gigacannon build and no Omega weapons. It was awesome.
...
The Gigacannon actually works really well in this build. Where it struggles is smaller and agile ships which you can see in the video. That is to a large extent mitigated if you can install an ECCM package though, in which case the Pilums are much more effective at anti-swarming, but I didn't have room because without Hardened Subsystem the timer runs out at the Radiants.
Huh, never would've thought of 4 pulse lasers, tried gigacannons+4 autolances+2 pulse lasers in the hybrid mount but it sucked.
On the video as soon as it's processed.

Wouldn't builtin armored mounts be better than gyros?
Lots of extra damage, gigacannon is less clunky and light dual AC has an easier time hitting.
Gyros are pretty good against frigates but pulse already turns fast and even against frigates the damage boost is mostly the same.
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CapnHector

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Yes, in fact. The Pulse Lasers are linked with the Flak Cannon to bypass AI flux management as discovered by Genir. Otherwise, all in their own groups. Video is now starting!

I tried AWM but the ship couldn't handle the flux, and this build is plenty strong enough vs large ships anyway - capable of dueling a Radiant 1v1; it's the small ships that are the problem.
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