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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); In-development patch notes for Starsector 0.98a (2/8/25)

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Author Topic: Ship types you want to see added before 1.0? What niches are left?  (Read 3755 times)

Arcagnello

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Re: Ship types you want to see added before 1.0? What niches are left?
« Reply #30 on: June 17, 2023, 05:12:46 AM »

Some lategame enemies that really incentivize the use of high explosives and those high armor damage energy weapons like tachyon and gigacannon, someone already mentioned a scary redacted phase capital and i'd love something like that in the game, but also some kind of redacted invictus as well, i was thinking a bunch of derelict vessels fused together and being controlled by a remnant core of some kind would be cool from a gameplay perspective and flavor one too

Though just capitals wouldn't be enough i think, maybe some destroyers and cruisers with an upgraded remnant version of the damper field would also go a long way towards making armor crackers more valuable

I actually wrote a thread orbting about a (spoilers)
Spoiler
theoretical Phase conversion of a Radiant
[close]
It's a bit old but the general concept hasn't reallly grown old, let me just quote post it down here real quick, in spoiler tags:

Spoiler
Momentarily coming back to suggest something sadistic:
Spoiler
Litteral Phase versions of the Brilliant with Alpha Core Officers are more balanced DP wise than the Radiant right now. No, it's not a joke:

I wonder if making the Radiant a phase ship would really buff it much or even nerf it, one big problem with it is that super efficient shield system combined with its ability to back off but as a phase ship it would be more vulnerable while attacking. Though OTOH there's also the randomness of officer skills, I drive the P9 Eyfel in my current campaign (a phase capital with the same teleport ability) and it's seriously underwhelming without skills, only good for kiting with slightly longer ranged guns but pretty useless when facing something it can't outrange since it'll attrition and the phase and teleport won't make up for the relatively low base speed of a capital. With skills however, wow. Teleporting twice as often? Double the speed in phase? Suddenly the ship has a lot more control over where it moves and can easily outpace other ships' ability to maneuver, even chase down fleeing frigates.

I'd claim that a skill-less phase Radiant would be much easier to kill than a regular Radiant.

Yes and no, assuming this theoretical Phase Radiant would get the same amount of extremely suboptimal setups on it. Most, if not all current Vanilla Radiant Builds:
-don't have front shield conversion, accellerated shields or stabilized shields as far as my knowledge goes
-don't have expanded missile racks if they use limited ammo missiles, the 5 Autopulse variant does not even seem to have Expanded Mags
-don't have Hardened shields (I'm not 100% sure about this one) or Solar Shielding
-have a set of 5 large weapons that don't synergize well at all with the 4 synergy hardpoints in the back

A theoretical Phase Radiant would not only have an Alpha Core with Elite Phase Mastery which would litterally quadruple the speed the capital ship goes at while in phase, but a decent setup on it would also have things like Unstable Injector, Auxiliary Thrusters, Heavy armor, Automated Repair Unit, Solar Shielding, Resistant Flux Conduits and the like, basically making it as tanky as the shield variant (especially if the Alpha Core at the helm also had Elite Impact Mitigation and Elite Damage Control), with the very, very important difference than a ship with no shield can not be prevented from firing by saturating it with kinetic fire, like pretty much all other Vanilla Remnants. Phase ships also usually have higher base armor than comparable ships of the same class, so it could be even worse than I Imagine it.

It would honestly be nastier than the standard version of the Radiant if they both got boosted up to 60DP. You don't usually bring beam weapons against Remnants since you're dealing with a lot of very good shields, a Phase capital would be a very smart (and incredibly sadistic) way to exploit that.


Then again, the current Radiant is not balanced by its Deployment Cost but by the fact two thirds of the Autofits for it are complete ass, so I would expect the same of the "Radiant-X Phase Droneship".

It's one of those "fail at it twice to make it right" kind of deals, really  ;D

Edit
Oh, I also forgot one thing about this theoretical "Brilliant-X Phase Droneship". The ship system it would supposedly have.

I could perfectly imagine it using Damper Field to make it more durable rather than an abominable delete machine using High Energy Focus, Fast Missile Racks or something even nastier that borrows System Distruption from the Harbinger or the Entropy something something go die now from the Afflictor.

If you're wondering where I got the Damper Field idea from, it's from the Phasegon (yes, it exists) from Caymon's Ship Pack: https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=19712.0

It's got something called "Advanced Damper Field" that I'm not too sure about how it differentiates from the normal one, aside from having a much shorter duration(?), so make sure to properly thank Caymon Joestar for when we're (hopefully) getting this brand new Phase Radiant added to Vanilla  ;)
[close]
You could make it 60 Deployment Points so you can legitimately brag about your modded content being more balanced than Vanilla  :-X

Edit: put the quote in a spoiler tag since I just noticed it was too long for mostly everyone's liking
[close]

This was a discussion Regarding the Phase-agon from Caymon's Ship pack and how the same treatment could be given to big boi [Redacted] ships

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SCC

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Re: Ship types you want to see added before 1.0? What niches are left?
« Reply #31 on: June 19, 2023, 12:22:01 PM »

In my experience with mod ships that rely on built-in weapons, they tend to be the most boring ones. I hope not to see any more of them in the base game.

I see people suggesting low tech elite frigate, but that kinda goes against the whole idea behind low tech. Unless we give it Phase Skimmer it's going to get bullied by everything. Same as Vanguard which was supposed to be the elite frigate. Unfortunately armour stats demand much higher numbers if one hopes to stay alive in bigger fights.
Just make it cheat, in a similar manner to Paragon. Paragon would be absolutely pathetic, if it did not have ATC instead of ITU. Odyssey would be subpar, if it didn't have almost destroyer-tier mobility.

A "command destroyer" with built-in Operations Center. Flagship for those who don't want to fly a ship.
A ship whose entire point is to not be ever seen... Just take any random civilian ship and slap Operation Center on it. At least David's time won't be wasted.

I've been thinking about making a mod that would just add actually good loadouts to the game since many enemy loadouts are just not at all optimal, and enemy fleets with proper loadouts and S-mods. Have fun actually facing some of the ones that chew through Ordos under AI control.
Second Wave Options mod adds better AI loadouts, but it also adds a lot of other stuff. For s-mods you will need to get crafty, since it needs to be scripted and iirc for enemies it's just "s-mod random mods, autofit to use the freed OP". Hopefully I'm wrong and it's possible to exercise more control over them.

Huh, now that I think about it, destroyer lineup really ends suddenly. Average DP cost is 10 I guess and the most "elite" ships are Manticore and Medusa at 12 DP. I know Harbinger is 20 but all phase ships are more expensive relative to their size class.
For comparison, the cheapest combat frigate is 2 DP (if you consider Kite to be a pure combat frigate) or 4 DP (if you would rather consider Lasher the cheapest combat frigate) and the most expensive non-hyperion frigate is 300%/100% more expensive. The cheapest combat cruiser is 14 DP, the most expensive non-phase combat cruiser is 114% more expensive. The cheapest combat capital ship is 35 DP,  the most expensive non-phase combat capital ship is 71% more expensive
And the cheapest combat destroyer is at 9 DP, the Enforcer, while the most expensive non-phase non-carrier combat destroyer is 33% more expensive. Even Drover is just 56% more expensive than Enforcer. Destroyers have a very narrow DP range, unlike other ship sizes.

-35-60DP High Tech, decent mobility Battlecruisers. Would be nice if their total armament wasn't anything impressive but it featured some Universal mounts for them to be highly customizable
Odydo yessey

Arcagnello

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Re: Ship types you want to see added before 1.0? What niches are left?
« Reply #32 on: June 19, 2023, 12:39:03 PM »

To SCC
Quote
Odydo yessey

There is a 15 DP gap between the highest DP non phase ship and the Odyssey, which is a hodgepodge of many things, then there's a further 15 DP gap between the Odyssey and the unmoving, immovable and arthritis-stricken Paragon.

A 35-40 DP High Tech Battlecruiser and a 45-50DP High Tech battleship with interesting Active Abilities would fill some gaps.

A good example of this would be a mod ship called the Chronos, which is a 35DP Battlecruiser that only sports 1Large mount and 3 mediums but has Temporal Shell like the Scarab


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Grievous69

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Re: Ship types you want to see added before 1.0? What niches are left?
« Reply #33 on: June 19, 2023, 12:44:44 PM »

FYI your interpretation of "gaps" probably isn't the same as the majority here. What would a theoretical high tech battlecruiser bring that sets it apart from Odyssey and Aurora? Even with a gimmick ship system that's starting to feel like ship roster bloat.
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Zsar

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Re: Ship types you want to see added before 1.0? What niches are left?
« Reply #34 on: June 19, 2023, 02:33:52 PM »

I am a simple man with simple pleasures.

  • Lasher (A) with .1 better shield efficiency, +10 speed, +4 OP or similar focus on additional survivability
    (I really like this ship, "it's full of bees", but between its poor shield, low flux and few OP the base variant does not even make it into the midgame, beyond the midgame the (LP) variant also calls it quits)
  • Champion (LG) - give it EBC, a built-in Gigacannon instead of the Large Missile Slot, turn the small front mounts into synergy and the medium mounts into energy or leave both as they are
    (finally a ship you can mount a Paladin PD on without feeling bad)
  • a Tempest skin without fighters
    (feels too weak if you pay OP to get rid of them via hull mod; no good idea for the replacement system though - not mobility, it's fast enough - maybe the system of the Afflictor or, if that is too strong, that of the Harbinger... or move that of the Harbinger to the Omen, where it's more apropos and give EMP emitter to the Tempest skin)
  • upvote for the heavy low-tech frigate, would not mind mid-tech either
    (something like the Brawler (LP) without SO or a slight upgrade over the Brawler (LG)/(TT), maybe with another small slot
  • upvote for the heavy destroyer
    (e.g. change the Medusa's system to work with its escort-like layout and introduce a more Shrike-like Medusa replacement)
« Last Edit: June 19, 2023, 02:37:58 PM by Zsar »
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Dri

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Re: Ship types you want to see added before 1.0? What niches are left?
« Reply #35 on: June 19, 2023, 03:18:41 PM »

Vanguard is suppose to be the heavy/elite low tech frigate but most think it is lacking. I say get rid of its Burn Drive (for real, so many ships have this system now =/) and bump up its top speed slightly, then give it a new armor regeneration ship system. 1 or 2 charges like missile autoforge, only it restores armor.
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SpaceDrake

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Re: Ship types you want to see added before 1.0? What niches are left?
« Reply #36 on: June 20, 2023, 08:55:48 AM »

I brought it up with Alex, but I think another "superfrigate" that isn't high-tech/TriTach (or just more strong, Tempest/Scarab/Omen-level frigates in general in other tech levels) would be fun and interesting. It feels a little weird that virtually all the high-performance strike frigates in the current game are high tech.
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Zsar

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Re: Ship types you want to see added before 1.0? What niches are left?
« Reply #37 on: June 20, 2023, 03:31:54 PM »

Well, the design space is somewhat limited without becoming lore unfriendly:
  • Low tech is the battleship school, so frigates are an afterthought. Indeed all low tech frigates currently in the game are either ancient (Hound, Vanguard), militia budget ships (Lasher) or "kitbashes" of stuff that ought to have no business actually flying around (Gremlin, Vanguard again).
    A Tempest-like low tech frigate would pretty much have to be a skin with a post-collapse history to fit in.
  • Mid-tech is the cruiser school, so frigates must be supportive in nature. Indeed both the Brawler and the Vigilance have a similar amount of firepower as the Tempest, but both are held back by relatively low speed and the Brawler in particular by a very unfavourable silhouette. The Centurion in the meanwhile is an excellent bullet sponge (for a frigate) and a great PD platform, but lacks firepower.
    I do not really think a mid tech Tempest-like frigate fits into the current game lore at all. Brawler (LP) comes close, but of course its SO limits versatility a lot (the Tempest can often stick around for even long fights and stay effective - and alive - all the way through).
  • High tech is the postmodern world, where speed and maneuverability are king, but unlike previous design eras there is no overarching design philosophy (as far as I have seen); thence, all kinds of frigate can and do exist here, it is also most likely to see high performance frigates like the Afflictor or Tempest here, because frigates are naturally aligned with these aspects.
    The two best-in-class ships are probably the Afflictor and the Tempest, and they are both high tech ships. Conversely, the Omen is much more similar to the mid tech Centurion in role (but better, although even less deadly on its own) and the Wolf is a budget option like the low tech Lasher (but better, again, even if not by much) - high tech has it all and any future high performance frigate would also be most likely / most easily fit into this tech level (but of course why add more, given it already has 2/2).
Outside of skins, I guess Hyperion-like vanity projects might also be an option, but lately, with addition of the Executor, Invictus, Retribution, the lineup becomes cringily thick with such ships and to me that hurts immersion re the allegedly (and otherwisely quite thoroughly so depicted) catastrophal decline of the sector.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2023, 03:34:08 PM by Zsar »
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BaBosa

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Re: Ship types you want to see added before 1.0? What niches are left?
« Reply #38 on: June 20, 2023, 08:49:26 PM »

One way to make a non hightech high powered frigate would be to leverage some broken combos like giving it 1 missile and 3 universal small mounts with fast missile racks and phase defense. Or give them ship armor that has an increased minimum armor ratio and combat endurance's hull repair but without restrictions. Or take the hound and make a buffed version so it can use its incredible speed without dying immediately. Or take the monitor and give it proper weapons. Change two small ballistics for a medium on the lasher. Make a low tech equivalent to terminator drones. Or make a drone that is fast, heavily armored, quickly replacemed, wide, but with no weapons so it acts like regenerating armor.

There are a lot of options, you just can't lean on raw states. Particularly you can't just double down on shields and flux like high tech do and you can't throw more armor and hull on without it just becoming a miniature cruiser. So any premium frigate that isn't high tech needs something special to make it work.

On another note, when I first heard about Vanguard on the post I honestly thought that the damper defense system it was going to have would be able to run continuously like phase and possibly allow the ship to fire weapons while using it with some disadvantage. Making damper defense a toggled system that halved dissipation and doubled weapon flux would probably make the Vanguard significantly better.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2023, 08:51:55 PM by BaBosa »
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KDR_11k

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Re: Ship types you want to see added before 1.0? What niches are left?
« Reply #39 on: June 21, 2023, 11:34:01 AM »

Not so much ships but I'd like some larger launchers for Atropos torps.
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smithney

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Re: Ship types you want to see added before 1.0? What niches are left?
« Reply #40 on: June 21, 2023, 01:20:43 PM »

I gotta echo Grievous69's post from earlier this thread, the vanilla ship lineup is pretty much decked out. I can see some free design space in potential variants of existing ships, but the archetypes pretty much check themselves out.

If anything, I would like to encounter more different fleet types. I hope Alex eventually does add more microfactions with unique fleet setups. Mid-high carriers, phase-less high, midline with phase, those are all archetypes I can imagine facing in the game. Heck, since there are unused assets for KoC, EU and MG in the game files, I have my hopes up these won't stay in the realm of modded content.
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