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Author Topic: Exploration needs to be a challenge again  (Read 2134 times)

Gothars

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Re: Exploration needs to be a challenge again
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2023, 06:45:43 AM »


I do not want my Topology used up if it means losing slipstream map and +3 burn.

I was talking about the item you repeatedly get when the event is maxed out. All you can do with it at the moment is to sell it.


Slow hyperspace zones are what hyperspace storms used to do, which paralyzed the fleet and voraciously devoured supplies via CR drain like a black hole - horrible!  It was a game reload moment when I got caught in one.  Storms that push the player faster toward where they want to go is much better than the spider webs they used to be.

I was imagining them more as zones on the edge of the sector that, effectively, make the map bigger by "compressing" it. You could archive the same by increasing the map size and spawning some stars at the new edges - but Alex already said he doesn't want to blow up the map.


Slipstreams are close enough abyssal hyperspace when they get in the way.  Same with storms when my fleet with low supplies cannot afford to take a hit.
I honestly wish emergency burn got buffed to facilitate easier brute-force crossing through inconvenient slipstreams, to prevent the "get launched by slipstream into a chain of hypsespace storms" doom spiral.

I wonder if you (and others) are missing something about slipstreams - they take me like 2 seconds to cross with E-burn, and I will only deviate from my course by a tiny amount, about the size of my fleet circle. You have to hold the mouse button down while you cross, though!


The challenge of exploration, IMHO, shouldn't be running out of supplies. That just makes the universe feel emptier and more desolate

If there's no danger of running out of them, then what are supplies good for? You could just pay credits every month to maintain your fleet.



Just don't put any points in Industry.

Come on, now.
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TaLaR

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Re: Exploration needs to be a challenge again
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2023, 06:59:55 AM »

Was exploration ever difficult? Never took industry skills and never had an issue.
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SpacePoliticianAndaZealot

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Re: Exploration needs to be a challenge again
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2023, 08:11:50 AM »

Slipstreams are close enough abyssal hyperspace when they get in the way.  Same with storms when my fleet with low supplies cannot afford to take a hit.
I honestly wish emergency burn got buffed to facilitate easier brute-force crossing through inconvenient slipstreams, to prevent the "get launched by slipstream into a chain of hypsespace storms" doom spiral.

I wonder if you (and others) are missing something about slipstreams - they take me like 2 seconds to cross with E-burn, and I will only deviate from my course by a tiny amount, about the size of my fleet circle. You have to hold the mouse button down while you cross, though!

I've mentioned emergency burn here for a reason, please re-read what we've wrote. Also, the deviations end up being quite larger than a singular fleet circle, because hyperspace storms exist, slipstreams are inside deep hyperspace most of the time, and there's no "buffer zone" or anything between the slipstream edges and deep hyperspace itself to safely decelerate into in order to prevent my fleet getting slingshotted light-years off-course and get significantly damaged in the process - all of which makes slipstream crossing an annoyance.
Flipping go-dark on and off to avoid getting smacked by hyperstorms is enough busiwork as-is (It'd be great if slow movement was a toggle instead of having to press and hold S), and crossing slipstreams upstream of your destination is more often than not an unwelcome annoyance. Your suggestions would only exacerbate these issues, and more.

Edit: After some more deliberation and playing, I admit I was wrong about slipstream crossing - it's nowhere near as much of a peeve as I once believed it to be, however I still believe exploration is fine as-is, and does not need to be made more "challenging" - more variety with regards to encounters in non-core systems and such would be always welcome, but as far as logistics go, I'm perfectly fine with dealing with hyperspace storms, coronas (coronae?), pulsar beams and the occasional event horizon.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2023, 03:37:37 AM by SpacePoliticianAndaZealot »
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Exploration needs to be a challenge again
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2023, 10:37:22 AM »

The amount your fleet deviates due to slip streams depends pretty significantly on your burn level. If you have a high burn fleet, it's really not an issue. If you are on capital burn with no bonuses (and in deep hyperspace), it can be a lot more annoying.

I find for narrow streams outside of deep hyperspace, I can even just cancel sustained burn as I enter and my momentum carries me far enough that I can get through without using e-burn at all (and without excessive deviation, maybe a few fleet circles).
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Megas

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Re: Exploration needs to be a challenge again
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2023, 11:13:12 AM »

I wonder if you (and others) are missing something about slipstreams - they take me like 2 seconds to cross with E-burn, and I will only deviate from my course by a tiny amount, about the size of my fleet circle. You have to hold the mouse button down while you cross, though!
Nothing to miss.  Fleet usually needs E-burn to cross without getting dragged down too far, which are additional CR and fuel taxes beyond the estimates.  Gets more annoying when I need to cross multiple streams and/or if a stream overlaps but flows against the direction of my path.

Yes, player needs to hold the button down, and I do not remember that being explained in the game when I first dealt with them.  Found that out the hard way.

The worst thing about streams is they cannot be ignored like storms can be.
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Realm

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Re: Exploration needs to be a challenge again
« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2023, 12:06:52 PM »

I don't see the issue with industry skills. You're trading off combat/fleet power for logistical ease, it's not like they're absolutely free unless you've raised the level cap. I feel if there's anything exploration needs challenge-wise, it's more unique encounters like
Spoiler
Alpha Site, Sentinel
[close]
, Guardians, Motherships and so forth - give me more 'boss fights' that let me measure where my fleet has reached power-wise, and give the older ones (that weren't spoilered) more unique rewards so they're more appealing.
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Doctorhealsgood

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Re: Exploration needs to be a challenge again
« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2023, 01:43:26 PM »

no thanks
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Megas

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Re: Exploration needs to be a challenge again
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2023, 03:12:46 PM »

Sentinel was a letdown.  If player will never be able to drop or store the planetkiller, then it should be decoupled from the XIV ships.  I did not expect a cursed item from D&D to show up in Starsector.  The cursed item aspect of the planetkiller made the whole Sentinel episode a real bad gameplay experience.  As it is, I will not touch the XIV ships (though I really want to) because of that... cursed item (planetkiller) I am forced to pick up.  I do not like any of the disposal options that remove it from your cargo, even if giving it to the Pathers for effectively no more Pather cells is the optimal choice.
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Wyvern

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Re: Exploration needs to be a challenge again
« Reply #23 on: June 03, 2023, 03:20:38 PM »

Out of curiosity, what is the actual problem with being unable to remove it from your cargo? I'll admit, I didn't keep it around for very long after I got it, but I don't recall seeing anyone react to you having it unless you explicitly brought up that you had it.
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Megas

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Re: Exploration needs to be a challenge again
« Reply #24 on: June 03, 2023, 03:25:51 PM »

Out of curiosity, what is the actual problem with being unable to remove it from your cargo? I'll admit, I didn't keep it around for very long after I got it, but I don't recall seeing anyone react to you having it unless you explicitly brought up that you had it.
The game simply does not allow you to remove the planetkiller from cargo.  (The cargo flashes orange and blocks your attempt if you try to drop it.)  You can suicide and respawn, but the planetkiller respawns in cargo with you, so killing yourself and respawning does not dispose of it.  The only way to get rid of it once it is in your cargo is to drop it in a black hole or give it to some faction representative.  None of those options appeal to me.  Why can't I give it to myself (I am a faction leader after all) and keep it as a trophy at home, hold on to it in a military base like a fantastic nuke to employ MAD doctrine, or just light it off on a planet (as an flashy alternative to sat bombing) like a terrorist?  After the battle with XIV ships, you first recover any of their ships you want, then you find and take the planetkiller automatically.  Hello Lodestone from Nethack!  Not quite as bad since it only takes 1 out of cargo, but it is such an irritant.

Janus Device is similarly tagged; you cannot drop it.  But unlike planetkiller, you can use it like a blueprint, and since that enables gate travel, that is a case of "why not eat and learn Janus gate travel immediately".

Long story short, I do not want to keep the planetkiller in my cargo permanently just because I do not want to dispose of it the way the game wants you to, and I do not have the option of leaving the planetkiller behind when I first find it.  (I just blundered into Sentinel and thought the XIV fleet guarded a powerup, not a cursed item.)
« Last Edit: June 03, 2023, 03:42:54 PM by Megas »
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Lawrence Master-blaster

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Re: Exploration needs to be a challenge again
« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2023, 09:52:01 PM »

RE: crossing slipstreams in deep Hyperspace with Emergency Burn - while I rate the severity of this "issue" at about seven milipeeves, there is actually one small problem with it: while Emergency Burn is active you are always automatically hit by storms, even when moving slowly. Which means that there are some very edge and very rare situations where if you use EBurn to cross a slipstream and try to move slowly on the other side you will get hit by a storm anyway. I don't know how intended EBurn always triggering storms is; doesn't seem like it should to me, it has no other unique interactions with movement really.

Of course, you could also argue that if you know that EBurn triggers storms, you should simply look for a place to cross without storms on the other side. Problem(?) solved.
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Doctorhealsgood

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Re: Exploration needs to be a challenge again
« Reply #26 on: June 04, 2023, 05:55:26 AM »

how heavy is the planetkiller anyways?
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landryraccoon

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Re: Exploration needs to be a challenge again
« Reply #27 on: June 08, 2023, 07:09:20 PM »

> If there's no danger of running out of them, then what are supplies good for? You could just pay credits every month to maintain your fleet.

Honestly, I wouldn't mind that.

At the moment, supplies and fuel are sort of a tether that attaches you to the core worlds. You aren't ultimately free to be a pure starfaring vagabond because at some point you'll have to go back to the core worlds to resupply. This is intensified by the fact that the coolest loot you can get from exploration (or bounties) isn't really money or a colony device (although that's nice) but it's SHIPS. You pick up a cool derelict, maybe it's [REDACTED] maybe it's a capital ship, either way the logistics demand is too much for you to haul it around forever so you eventually have to go back to town to store or refit it. I mean, that's reasonable, you have a loop where you eventually need to go back to town to refit, resupply, change up your fleet, turn in/pick up quests and whatnot. I get that you want supply to be this sword hanging over your head where you die if you make a misstep, for me it's more like a reminder of "oh, I'm running low on supplies, probably time to go back to town and sell my loot."

But if there were skills that actually allowed you to leave the core worlds and basically never return except for picking up quests - well why not? If exploration is fun, why do you want to take that away from players? Just let them play how they want.  If maxxing out Industry meant you never had to worry about running out supplies as long as you kept salvaging and winning fights, what exactly would be the problem with that? I mean, that sounds great to me.

The Sentinel encounter was great, I loved it. It was *new*. I didn't know what to expect, and the reward is incredible. More stuff like that please. I'm completely ambivalent about losing 1 cargo space as a result of the encounter. By the time you're beating it, 1 cargo space shouldn't matter at all.

« Last Edit: June 08, 2023, 07:13:41 PM by landryraccoon »
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Aeson

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Re: Exploration needs to be a challenge again
« Reply #28 on: June 09, 2023, 02:40:13 AM »

I am inclined to agree with everyone else in the thread who's said that these suggestions generally sound more annoying than fun.

Quote
Flipping go-dark on and off to avoid getting smacked by hyperstorms is enough busiwork as-is (It'd be great if slow movement was a toggle instead of having to press and hold S), and crossing slipstreams upstream of your destination is more often than not an unwelcome annoyance. Your suggestions would only exacerbate these issues, and more.
Frankly, I wish "going slow" just meant "not using Sustained Burn." Sustained Burn is my standard travel speed when I'm not trying to be sneaky, autopilot has no concept of hazard avoidance and will path you through an asteroid field on a near-tangent course if that's the direct route from where you currently are to where you told it you want to go, and going dark in most inhabited Core systems is just asking to be harassed by patrols, especially when your fleet isn't even remotely built for stealth. Also, who wants to crawl across Isirah or Magec at their slowest speed when the stations are on the opposite side of the system from the jump points?

Beyond that, as things currently stand, I don't see much point to 'standard' burn - it's too fast to safely pass through asteroids and hyperstorms, it's too slow for regular travel unless you're worried enough about being detected not to use Sustained Burn but not so worried about being detected as to go dark (and that space can become pretty narrow when you have the Sensors skill or phase ships), and it's a mixed bag for hunting other fleets since anything that's afraid of you is probably going to bolt if they see you coming (so you either want to come in slow and stealthy or burn in as fast as you can to try and catch them without needing to wait out their emergency-burn) while anything that's not afraid of you is either going to adopt a wait-and-see posture or decide that they're the predator and you're the prey.
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Grievous69

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Re: Exploration needs to be a challenge again
« Reply #29 on: June 09, 2023, 02:44:23 AM »

Frankly, I wish "going slow" just meant "not using Sustained Burn." Sustained Burn is my standard travel speed when I'm not trying to be sneaky, autopilot has no concept of hazard avoidance and will path you through an asteroid field on a near-tangent course if that's the direct route from where you currently are to where you told it you want to go, and going dark in most inhabited Core systems is just asking to be harassed by patrols, especially when your fleet isn't even remotely built for stealth. Also, who wants to crawl across Isirah or Magec at their slowest speed when the stations are on the opposite side of the system from the jump points?

Beyond that, as things currently stand, I don't see much point to 'standard' burn - it's too fast to safely pass through asteroids and hyperstorms, it's too slow for regular travel unless you're worried enough about being detected not to use Sustained Burn but not so worried about being detected as to go dark (and that space can become pretty narrow when you have the Sensors skill or phase ships), and it's a mixed bag for hunting other fleets since anything that's afraid of you is probably going to bolt if they see you coming (so you either want to come in slow and stealthy or burn in as fast as you can to try and catch them without needing to wait out their emergency-burn) while anything that's not afraid of you is either going to adopt a wait-and-see posture or decide that they're the predator and you're the prey.
Yup same thoughts here, only thing is that Sensors skill would lose a part of the perk, maybe change that so "Going Dark" gives a small boost higher than regular slow speed.

My normal travel speed is Sustained Burn with speed up toggled 95% of the time. I only disable it in hostile space such a high danger systems and core worlds where I'm not welcome.
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