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[Gothars]

Exploration has just become too easy.
The industry skills (bulk transport, salvaging, containment and makeshift equipment) all but trivialized reaching the very edge of the map. I remember when exploring was new and there were no skills for it yet - you had to really plan out expeditions, balancing your logistic support with your combat fleet and thinking about your route beforehand. Then there were many nail-biting moments were it was just not clear if you could make it back home with what little fuel you had, salvaging every last drop from floating wrecks, finding just enough to make it to the next system. During those times "distress call" was actually useful - I have never touched that ability since exploration skills became a thing.
Today I start with bulk transport skill, slap some logistic hullmods on a tanker and a freighter - and bam, the only reason to ever get back to the core is that my cargo hold is already too full of loot. Slipstreams only exacerbate that issue. That is only nice if you don't actually want exploration to be a challenge.

Now, I'm not saying "get rid of all exploration skills". What separates them from combat skills is that the combat challenges actually grew with the new player capabilities - enemy fleets gained officers and there are [REDACTED] and [SUPER REDACTED] that probably can't be fought without skills. The same is not true for exploration, it's the same tame hyperspace it was years ago.

So, my hope is this: give exploration new challenging elements that bring back the old excitement, even while the player has skills. Before I make practical suggestions what those could be, one more thing: as no fight requires the player character to have combat skills (officers exists), I wouldn't want characters without industry skill to be locked out from the greatest exploration challenges. There could be some other tools to help with that, like topographic data. Topographic data are already supposedly an "essential element of successful expeditions outside the core worlds" - why not make them temporarily improve your logistical profile and then be used up? You could maybe buy them from other travelers.

Alright, some ideas to up the challenge of exploration:

- Increase fuel use with rising distance from the core systems. Hyperspace is barely mapped here, so you can't travel it with the same efficiency.
- Make some jump points very costly to enter. They are unstable and your fleet will take heavy CR damage.
- Slow hyperspace zones where you slow down to a crawl while still using lots of fuel and supplies
- Make some places in hyperspace not reachable on a direct route, maybe by introducing "abyssal hyperspace" - so deep you can't cross it.
- Some of those hyperspace ghosts sap your fuel!
- Some of your crew may get a little bit crazy when out in the fringes for too long (especially on phase ships), leading to accidents

[Wyvern]

On a related note, I'd buff up the threat of low-threat warning beacon systems; medium and high threat systems work pretty well, but all the low-threat beacon really tells me is "Go here, there will probably be good loot!"

They're just not a threat, at the moment. At least not to any fleet that could clear the tutorial.

And on the flip side: loot drops for the explorarium mothership really need to be touched up. Tracking one down and salvaging it is already one of the better bits of exploration content... but the rewards just aren't there anymore. I feel like I should be getting a t-shirt: "I salvaged an explorarium mothership and all I got was this lousy corrupted nanoforge!"

[Megas]

I do not even get any nanoforge from the mothership now, just an alpha core.  Granted, alpha cores are nice, but with just two in the game, I want my pristine nanoforge.

I do not want my Topology used up if it means losing slipstream map and +3 burn.

- Increase fuel use with rising distance from the core systems. Hyperspace is barely mapped here, so you can't travel it with the same efficiency.
- Make some jump points very costly to enter. They are unstable and your fleet will take heavy CR damage.
- Slow hyperspace zones where you slow down to a crawl while still using lots of fuel and supplies
- Make some places in hyperspace not reachable on a direct route, maybe by introducing "abyssal hyperspace" - so deep you can't cross it.
- Some of those hyperspace ghosts sap your fuel!
- Some of your crew may get a little bit crazy when out in the fringes for too long (especially on phase ships), leading to accidents

They look like they would make hyperspace more annoying than it already is.

Slow hyperspace zones are what hyperspace storms used to do, which paralyzed the fleet and voraciously devoured supplies via CR drain like a black hole - horrible!  It was a game reload moment when I got caught in one.  Storms that push the player faster toward where they want to go is much better than the spider webs they used to be.

Slipstreams are close enough abyssal hyperspace when they get in the way.  Same with storms when my fleet with low supplies cannot afford to take a hit.

[Gift-of-Life]

I get were OP is going, but suggestions as another has said would just be annoying. I would Suggest using another mechanic this game has. Missions!

Have random events for travel with negative effects with some or no rewards for over coming them.

Some could be based off distance continuously traveled, or micro meteor shower. (environment) Rewards could be a 10 day buff to max speed.
Another could be faction based encounter that has a player taking on a large amount of refugees, or damaged faction ships. (faction) Rewards could be a gain of crew or ship.
Maybe have a random Officer decide to become a Captain, that forces you to fight the ship, talk them down, or force a Marine boarding. (player) Reward could be a under paid Officer...

I would get the most enjoyment from this over a re-balancing

[landryraccoon]

I disagree with the premise that exploration should be very logistically punishing, for two reasons:

1. Industry skills come with huge tradeoffs.
2. Punishingly difficult logistics simply isn't fun (for me) and I suspect for a large class of other players too.

What's fun about Starsector? Combat and finding cool loot are the two big draws for me. Doing spreadsheet calculations to see how far you can go and carefully shepherding your supplies simply isn't the sort of game I would prefer to play. Simply put, it feels like avoiding punishment, rather than seeking a fun reward. So your reward for doing the math right is just not dying when you go explore a new system? I mean maybe that's fun for some but it's not fun for me.

Okay, so even if you do find that fun, I think you can choose that playstyle. Just don't put any points in Industry. In the early game, if you put every point into Industry skills you're probably dodging combats and avoiding bounties and combat missions, because your combat stats will be gimped.

If a player wants to RP as a relatively peaceful explorer, avoiding combats and building up a strong fleet before respeccing into combat, I think that should be fine.

If the game DOES go the way you propose, I would hope that it comes with a greatly improved UI / tools. For example, setting multiple waypoints in a chain and seeing the total travel time and supply / fuel expenditure at base burn level and so forth.  I understand that some people like that excel spreadsheet style of play, but I don't. I'm happy to spend a couple points in Industry in the early game to simply not have to deal with that, and feel free to travel.

Now one thing I can agree with is putting more combat threats at the edges of the map. The challenge of exploration, IMHO, shouldn't be running out of supplies. That just makes the universe feel emptier and more desolate. I would prefer that you find more STUFF in remote systems - more fights, more difficult enemies, more weirdness.

The most annoying thing about exploration is simply going to a system to survey it and finding NOTHING there. No habitable worlds, no probes, no domain security systems, no [REDACTED]. Just a boring, empty dead system. Put a boss fight there or maybe even just a paragraph of story scrap, a teaser of how the Domain used to be. The game setting is the ruins of a post-apocalyptic millennia-spanning galactic empire.  Stories, mysteries, strangeness should abound in every corner of the galaxy.

[intrinsic_parity]

And on the flip side: loot drops for the explorarium mothership really need to be touched up. Tracking one down and salvaging it is already one of the better bits of exploration content... but the rewards just aren't there anymore. I feel like I should be getting a t-shirt: "I salvaged an explorarium mothership and all I got was this lousy corrupted nanoforge!"

I've found that exploration loot in general feels kinda unexciting this patch tbh. It feels like stations are mostly dropping vendor trash too.

Spoiler

Sentinel

[close]

was nice but there's not enough of that stuff IMO. I was thinking about making a thread suggesting some more loot like temporary colony items, campaign consumables (one-time use device to making a bunch of fuel/supplies, or a free E-burn or stuff like that), or exploration only ships/weapons etc (or even omega/sindria weapon drops).

Just stuff to add variety and excitement without spamming more colony items and blueprints.

[Megas]

Not too fond of Sentinel because I cannot fight and take the special automated ships without also taking the planetkiller I cannot store or drop.  I have to give it to someone or dump it in a black hole to get rid of it (instead of keeping it at home in the treasure vault).  Until I decide for sure what to do with the PK, I stay away from that encounter.  I want the automated ships, but not the PK.  So far, the most useful thing out of Sentinel when finished is a shop in the fringe.

I do not want more cursed items I cannot drop if I cannot consume them for myself.  (Janus Device, I want it, and I can eat it.  Planetkiller?  I cannot use it for myself.)

[SafariJohn]

Most challenging travel mechanics I have seen lately is in STALKER, particularly the Escape From Pripyat modpack where the locations of the anomalies (little death zones) are random and can change.

Deadly random encounters, deadly anomalies, and limited supplies combine to encourage very cautious movement because any lapse in attention can result in death that comes just slowly enough for you to realize your doom. Of course that wouldn't work for Starsector given the totally different movement and vision mechanics.


I think maintenance supplies and travel fuel hold back Starsector's opportunities for challenging travel mechanics because they are neither difficult nor challenging. Sure, you can live on the edge, but it isn't entertaining and it is easy not to. Do trivial trade runs. Buy logistics ships which are invincible as long as you have combatants. Buy as much fuel/supplies as desired. Go wherever you please.

Contrast spending supplies on maintenance vs. tiny nanite clouds that eat CR if you hit them. Both can be brute-forced, but with skill or patience you can thread through the nanites to get where you want to go without having to drag along a bunch of freighters.


To ramble a bit:

I think fuel's other spend point, jumping into hyper, is more than sufficient to limit player exploration. You only have enough fuel to explore X systems and if you run out you can always distress call and get bailed, or fight pirates, or whatever, then go home. Unless nobody comes.

Constant fuel consumption would be better served by some sort of crew superstition mechanic where you have to balance success against doing scary things. That black hole may have a research station (big success!), but being anywhere near a black hole is terrifying (constant scary). Being far from the core worlds is scary. Encountering hyperspace ghosts is scary. Etc.

The core worlds are kind of like the town in games like Fate. More of a big city divided between factions, I guess, but it still doesn't seem sensible to make any significant money shuttling junk around town when the dungeon is right there. You should have to pick dangerous fights and stay away from the deadly ones if you want to get somewhere in the core worlds.

Star systems and hyper are too empty of small things. Little clouds just big enough to hide an ambush. Single ships going from place to place. Hyperspace blips that bounce your fleet or hold it for a moment if you stumble into them. IDK. Weird stuff. Neat stuff. Stuff stuff even.

Really want to shake up player behavior? Ambushes that can force deploy the player's fleet. No reason to not let player do the same sometimes - would make attacking trade fleets entertaining - though that would need to be less impactful.

IDK. Maybe my ideas are trash. However I do feel Starsector could have a satisfying travel experience.

[Amoebka]

Idk, I've played this game for years, and I still end up stranded without fuel all the time later in the game.

I think the problem is, players rarely travel far with large fleets, which is where the difficulty comes. Early game, when your fleet it a bunch of frigates, and you have industry skills, exploration is a breeze. Late game, when your fleet burns 1000 fuel every time you blink, and you have specced out of industry into combat-related skills, logistics become a headache. But you don't really need to take a large fleet with you, because there's not much to fight, beyond the red beacons and hypershunts.

[Grievous69]

I'll echo the rest here and say logistic accidents are pure poop gameplay wise. I already think the fuel costs (especially of some ships) are ridiculously high, so much that it's not a problem to get/buy fuel, it's the issue where I can't acquire the sheer number of units I need for exploring. And I don't even have some huge capital fleets, just a normal end game one. And most suggestion here revolve around even further fuel spendings. You'd have to make colonies in every corner of the map just so you can reasonably refuel somewhere.

I actually pick Containment Procedures every single run just so I can refuel at faction colonies, and not only my own. This is the last thing exploration needs to be "harder".

Make far away planets really really hostile, ambushes all over the place, spooky unexplainable events, anything really except making players want to cheat out the logistic stats in the game.

[SpacePoliticianAndaZealot]

I really have to disagree with OP on a fundamental level here. To be blunt, fringe world exploration is a chore. While calling it "bad" would be going too far, it's definitely my least favourite aspect of campaign gameplay, primarily due to hyperspace topography. I've never been a fan of hyperspace storms, but right now they're fine as-is. Slipstreams are a whole another story, though - having missions appear almost exclusively upstream of most of the sector's slipstreams is, well, not very fun. I honestly wish emergency burn got buffed to facilitate easier brute-force crossing through inconvenient slipstreams, to prevent the "get launched by slipstream into a chain of hypsespace storms" doom spiral.

Loot-wise as well, I just don't stand to gain a lot from exploring in regular circumstances. There needs to be a mission of some sorts to incentivize me leaving core worlds in most cases.

[Lawrence Master-blaster]

It's kind of funny to see a "make exploration harder" post when many players consider crossing a slipstream some kind of insurmountable challenge.

I'll echo the rest here and say logistic accidents are pure poop gameplay wise. I already think the fuel costs (especially of some ships) are ridiculously high, so much that it's not a problem to get/buy fuel, it's the issue where I can't acquire the sheer number of units I need for exploring. And I don't even have some huge capital fleets, just a normal end game one.

Well then there's your problem, you are not supposed to do exploration with an endgame fleet.

[Grievous69]

I'll echo the rest here and say logistic accidents are pure poop gameplay wise. I already think the fuel costs (especially of some ships) are ridiculously high, so much that it's not a problem to get/buy fuel, it's the issue where I can't acquire the sheer number of units I need for exploring. And I don't even have some huge capital fleets, just a normal end game one.

Well then there's your problem, you are not supposed to do exploration with an endgame fleet.

That's just bad advice. I'm not going to ditch all non economic cruisers and every capital and then have to come back for them a second time the moment I find a Hypershunt, Guardian, high danger system, etc. That's just making the game even more of a chore.

[Princess of Evil]

Guardian can be easily beaten just with one capital and some destroyer support, which is still enough efficiency that you don't feel like you're buying more fuel than you're salvaging.
High danger? I just run away from everything in high danger. Remnant legally can't catch you if you're just flying away on 10 burn.

[Lawrence Master-blaster]

In my last run I cleared the entire Normal sector with 8 HIL Sunders without officers or Support Doctrine. 99% of fights when exploring are against Derelicts and HIL Sunders hard-counter them. Guardians quickly get surrounded and it's over. In high danger systems you don't fight anything because you have small enough sensor profile to simply avoid the Remnant as you go around surveying and salvaging.

Destroyers cannot do a Hypershunt, true. But going around everywhere with a full-sized fleet just because 2 out of over 100 systems you're going to visit will have a tough fight(that is not going anywhere and you can return to it at any time later) is just silly.