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Starsector 0.98a is out! (03/27/25)

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Author Topic: Narrative in 0.96 aka Movie Night With David  (Read 28872 times)

SpacePoliticianAndaZealot

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Re: Narrative in 0.96 aka Movie Night With David
« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2023, 11:13:42 PM »

Weirdly enough, I've never caught onto the whole "Jaspis being the luddic equivalent of Provost Baird" thing, it didn't seem obvious to me at all. I definitely enjoyed getting roasted for picking cynical dialogue options when visiting the Shrines, though - it's not very often that I witness an NPC calling me a jerk - and that it feels completely justified!

I'm also surprised to read that the entire Jethro questline wasn't originally in plan, given how significantly fleshed out it is, I assumed that this was a set-up for a Galatia-equivalent questline, a sort-of a separate faction-based main quest line, not unlike, say, Fallout: New Vegas' system.

In any case, I wish you the best in cooking up that narrative payoff for Galatia and other questlines! Starsector as a game has always been very dear to me, ever since I bought it all the way back in 2016, and I'm always looking forward to seeing where will it go next!
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Dadada

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Re: Narrative in 0.96 aka Movie Night With David
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2023, 03:11:07 AM »

No explicit plans to expand the topic, but it is implied that TT runs a bunch of black sites for various things.
Would be rad to see some of the eehhm more "failed" experiments and sites.

Hmm, who could say! (... it's only been stewing in my brain for like 8? 9? years; gah.)
Ooof, godspeed!

Take Morrowind -
Did you see the recent AI speech Dagoth channels? I love them. :D
NSFW or NSF life o.O: https://www.youtube.com/@Dagothslur/videos
https://www.youtube.com/@djdagoth/videos
and so on. Bonus, predates the AI stuff, also probably SFW I'd say:
Spoiler
[close]

Funny how Kanta turns down some unique or priceless offerings because it is not its style or too hot to handle or accepts some seemingly worthless offerings just because it corrupts the player (or demonstrate how far the player is willing to fall to evil).
Ohhh, neat, I didn't get to see that, guess I made Kanta a bit upset at the end of the main quest, oopsie!

What was the XI Battlegroup?
Interesting, I want MOAR!11 :D


E: Also: https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=24215.msg400241#msg400241
I like the master planner artwork. :D
« Last Edit: June 03, 2023, 03:53:23 AM by Dadada »
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smithney

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Re: Narrative in 0.96 aka Movie Night With David
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2023, 04:40:20 AM »

Weirdly enough, I've never caught onto the whole "Jaspis being the luddic equivalent of Provost Baird" thing.
That's because Starsec's female characters are well written. It's neat to see them in positions of power and not have them end up being just "masculine women". Even better, each of them feels like they wield their power differently. That said, I'm looking forward to the moment we meet Artemisia Sun to experience a truly convincing female character. I think you know very well what I'm hinting at.

Trolling Arroyo with the "special item" is a [something], that's for sure. ... and now I'm mildly disappointed about the lack of League turn-in option (in general, but also that we can't troll Siyavong in the same way).
I though l was going to love hating Arroyo after my first experience with him. Interestingly, he grew much more sympathetic as a character the moment I roleplayed a character that was taking advantage of him. Incidentally, do you have a plan to add some gender-specific dialogue in the future, David?
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Megas

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Re: Narrative in 0.96 aka Movie Night With David
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2023, 04:41:20 AM »

Funny how Kanta turns down some unique or priceless offerings because it is not its style or too hot to handle or accepts some seemingly worthless offerings just because it corrupts the player (or demonstrate how far the player is willing to fall to evil).
Ohhh, neat, I didn't get to see that, guess I made Kanta a bit upset at the end of the main quest, oopsie!
I got +2 Kanta's Wrath after busting Zal out, and I could still bargain for Kanta's Protection afterward if I wanted it.  I do not know if bargaining is possible if you space Loke without the helmet.
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Dadada

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Re: Narrative in 0.96 aka Movie Night With David
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2023, 05:04:03 AM »

Mmm, I still got the save, I did eject Loke with the helmet but as I understood it I got denied? Mmmm. So I too probably have +2 "Kantas wrath"... Lemme check that.
E: It works, guess I was mistaken about being denied? :D
« Last Edit: June 03, 2023, 05:08:32 AM by Dadada »
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ravspel

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Re: Narrative in 0.96 aka Movie Night With David
« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2023, 06:07:43 AM »

Speaking of Loke, it feels like a bit of a missed opportunity that the only two ways to resolve that quest are to either give him up to Kanta (and let her get away with it) or to just outright murder the poor bastard. It would be nice to have some more options like keeping him on as crew/an officer, or turning him over to some other faction, or helping him set up a new identity somewhere.
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David

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Re: Narrative in 0.96 aka Movie Night With David
« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2023, 06:57:28 AM »

David, you and Alex are planning to give the ethos system some effects later, I suppose? At least, like how Luddic attitude controls some dialog options (though only cosmetically, as far as I could see).

I think it'd be fun, but I can't say anything without having done it yet. Without going too deep, I don't think the ethos points can be fairly used until the player has defined their character by hitting a lot of them first - and "liar" kinda dominates right now just due to dialog hinjinks. But maybe it should all be considered relative anyway, and if there's a good floor value per ethos before they start affecting things...

(Luddic attitude does in fact open up some easier, ahem, paths for dealing with Church/Pather interactions in some missions.)

Weirdly enough, I've never caught onto the whole "Jaspis being the luddic equivalent of Provost Baird" thing, it didn't seem obvious to me at all.

Good! I was very intentional about trying to make the whole thing feel different from Baird.

I definitely enjoyed getting roasted for picking cynical dialogue options when visiting the Shrines, though - it's not very often that I witness an NPC calling me a jerk - and that it feels completely justified!

Haha! Well, quit being a jerk :)

I'm also surprised to read that the entire Jethro questline wasn't originally in plan, given how significantly fleshed out it is, I assumed that this was a set-up for a Galatia-equivalent questline, a sort-of a separate faction-based main quest line, not unlike, say, Fallout: New Vegas' system.

To bring back my point about rigidity in RPG design, I don't want to make an equivalent set of activities for each faction and let you choose like it's something as shallow as choosing a color. The point is that they are intrinsically different organizations, with different internal conflicts, and different power dynamics - and so on and so on. I think their identities should be built up out of a set of unique and specific interactions rather than templates with the descriptors switched out. Similarly, I'm perfectly happy if it isn't possible to relate to them all in the same way! Anyway, we'll have to see how to pans out in development.

(Yeah, I know we have the commission system, but you gotta make some allowances eh?)

In any case, I wish you the best in cooking up that narrative payoff for Galatia and other questlines! Starsector as a game has always been very dear to me, ever since I bought it all the way back in 2016, and I'm always looking forward to seeing where will it go next!

Thank you, we hope to deliver!

What was the XI Battlegroup? Does it use the same class of hulls the XIV use or did they have some unique warships in their fleet? what would have happened if they had stayed alongside the XIV? What outcome it could have on the whole story. It makes me so jittery looking forward to newer ship classes you guys make as they are not only great for combat but they also explain the personality of each and every faction in the persean sector.

I shall assume your questions are rhetorical (because I don't have answers). 

... And I realize I never talked about anti-lore in the blog post despite saying I would. Oops. But in short: leaving space for questions makes the world feel big. Answering all the questions and making every noun closely related to every other makes the world feel very small (see: the pitfalls of many Star Wars productions). In this case, it is a question we'll answer if we think we can make it an interesting and worthwhile experience in the game. If not, then it's up to you!

I though l was going to love hating Arroyo after my first experience with him. Interestingly, he grew much more sympathetic as a character the moment I roleplayed a character that was taking advantage of him. Incidentally, do you have a plan to add some gender-specific dialogue in the future, David?

Same - I did *not* intend to write Arroyo as sympathetic at all, but somehow it happened.

Gender-specific: If you're asking for romance options, then probably not. I think the player is too blank-slate to make that really work, in my mind. ( -- Though you did get Princess of Persea!)

And generally, to the previous point about "anti-lore", answering questions about how gender is constructed/viewed/modified in various societies in the Persean Sector is... a huge project to take on. There are some small references, and maybe I'm happy to leave it at a point where it's pretty open-ended.

I'll add some mod text here, not directed at you, in light of a previous comment: per rule 1. "don't be awful", and 3. no hate speech; we'll tolerate no bigotry in this thread, nor axe-grinding around very specific complaints about some other franchise.

Speaking of Loke, it feels like a bit of a missed opportunity that the only two ways to resolve that quest are to either give him up to Kanta (and let her get away with it) or to just outright murder the poor bastard. It would be nice to have some more options like keeping him on as crew/an officer, or turning him over to some other faction, or helping him set up a new identity somewhere.

I wasn't sure where I wanted him to end up in the story, so I kept the possibilities pretty constrained. I did feel good about adding a dialog where you can ask him what he wants, at least.

(... And ah, considering his state, I'm not sure he'd make a good officer.)
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The2nd

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Re: Narrative in 0.96 aka Movie Night With David
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2023, 07:09:57 AM »

I have really enjoyed your writing. People badly wanting conclusions to the existing story lines is a testament to its quality.

I love that you can skip parts of the main quest by brute forcing Kantas station. The writing of the marine raid and its fallout in context is one of my favorite pieces of writing in video games period. Actually surprising Zal is a bonus  ;D 

Please more of that, more player agency! And narrative consequences when you screw up! It would be, for example, very fitting when Macario would just "fire" you when you repeatedly fail and are obviously lying to him. Just strait up end the stotyline (or have an alternative path). For options to feel meaningful there needs to be a failure state.

Also a question: have you guys talked about/planned for an option to skip the main quest? It does get repetitive after a few playthroughs. Having an explicit option to skip it and still having an opportunity to get the Janus device would be nice. (maybe the story resolves after a certain time on its own, with the player getting the option to be able to buy the/a Janus device for a lot of cash etc.)     

 
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David

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Re: Narrative in 0.96 aka Movie Night With David
« Reply #23 on: June 03, 2023, 07:49:42 AM »

I have really enjoyed your writing. People badly wanting conclusions to the existing story lines is a testament to its quality.

Ah, thank you so much!

I love that you can skip parts of the main quest by brute forcing Kantas station. The writing of the marine raid and its fallout in context is one of my favorite pieces of writing in video games period. Actually surprising Zal is a bonus  ;D 

Please more of that, more player agency! And narrative consequences when you screw up! It would be, for example, very fitting when Macario would just "fire" you when you repeatedly fail and are obviously lying to him. Just strait up end the stotyline (or have an alternative path). For options to feel meaningful there needs to be a failure state.

I hear you! I kinda love the idea of just shutting the player down when they make a move they know is dumb within the context they're acting within, but at the same time people can get really frustrated when they get locked out of content - playing the game IS a big investment of time, and we have to respect that. At the same time, games tend to be over-forgiving of players making choices against the narrative, and we're no exception.

So, I suppose: it's something to be handled carefully, and it needs to be made really clear to the player what's happening and why, I think.

(Specific to Macario: I'm sure he'd still play 7-dimensional chess with a PC he thinks is trying to undermine him. Now how to write that...)

Also a question: have you guys talked about/planned for an option to skip the main quest? It does get repetitive after a few playthroughs. Having an explicit option to skip it and still having an opportunity to get the Janus device would be nice. (maybe the story resolves after a certain time on its own, with the player getting the option to be able to buy the/a Janus device for a lot of cash etc.)     

We have discussed what that could look like, actually. I'll have to review the notes; obviously skipping around content in a plausible manner is not super high on the list of dev priorities, but we are aware of the request and understand why players who have done the mission a million times would like this option.
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Megas

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Re: Narrative in 0.96 aka Movie Night With David
« Reply #24 on: June 03, 2023, 11:49:45 AM »

One thing I just remembered.

Before this release, pirates felt like a loose organization with no leader, occasionally as zombies in a zombie apocalypse in releases with too frequent and out-of-control raid frequency.  Today, with Kanta being involved with everything important about the pirates (especially Hostile Activity), Pirates now feel like a monolithic major faction, with Kanta as their proper faction leader, little different from other established major factions aside from lack of patrols and caring about transponder status.
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Dadada

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Re: Narrative in 0.96 aka Movie Night With David
« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2023, 12:12:20 PM »

>lore
What about using the historian for lore dumps? Sure, it's not passive if we have to ask her/him but for interested peeps maybe an option? As a figure of authority I'd give the historians words certain weight but maybe that is just me being naive (fallacy - appeal to authority).

Would be interesting to see the view on or retelling of certain happenings from Indie vs Persean League vs Hege perspectives, maybe the "Luddic taverns" (lel tea TaVeRn) and talk in them can offer what certain pilgrims from certain areas think, I expect dictate pilgrims to be more brainwashed but maybe I got bamboozled, all disguised as background chatter... Also: hacking TT databases. :D
Normal bars could have banter on certain current topics, I also liked Freelancers news on current happenings, I think they were also somewhat filtered by area and faction.

>But in short: leaving space for questions makes the world feel big. Answering all the questions and making every noun closely related to every other makes the world feel very small
Mmmm, interesting, I never thought about it, but I am no writer, just a consumer (give_me_more, where is Winds of Winter? :D)

So maybe with stories from different sides we can make our own conclusions, no matter how many holes they have...
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smithney

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Re: Narrative in 0.96 aka Movie Night With David
« Reply #26 on: June 03, 2023, 01:22:28 PM »

Gender-specific: If you're asking for romance options, then probably not. I think the player is too blank-slate to make that really work, in my mind. ( -- Though you did get Princess of Persea!)

And generally, to the previous point about "anti-lore", answering questions about how gender is constructed/viewed/modified in various societies in the Persean Sector is... a huge project to take on. There are some small references, and maybe I'm happy to leave it at a point where it's pretty open-ended.
Thank you for the answer. What I had in mind with was more in the realm of easter eggs: Perhaps a player who got lucky charming a portmaster for an easy access to confidential information as a male character would wind up surprised by a reputation loss when they try it as a female. Romance might be an unnecessary feature, but seeing that a NP character tends to disproportionately pander to an enby PC might be an enlightening replay bonus, don't you think? Either way I fully support your principally anti-lore approach to gender, I'd agree it's the best one for Starsector.

More on Arroyo: He's certainly a character that reflects the depth of the game's setting. Seeing him more as a victim of circumstances rather than a simply offputting careerist is an eye-opening experience. It tells an observant player much more about the Tri-Tach than an obscene amount of lore dumps would. I hope you'll manage to replicate this with other characters, especially those who would be available as contacts.

Just one more thing: I greatly appreciate the effort you put into taking non-standard approaches into account. The Usurpers questline would be a perfect playground for them. I genuinely hope you will take guys like Gargoyle and Curate Standfast into account when finishing the storyline.

EDIT: Whoops! Looks like I missed out on the party of the decacycle! Definitely gonna look out for an exotic epilogue on Hegemony worlds now!
« Last Edit: June 03, 2023, 01:30:11 PM by smithney »
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PizzaInSpace

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Re: Narrative in 0.96 aka Movie Night With David
« Reply #27 on: June 04, 2023, 12:39:23 AM »

I shall assume your questions are rhetorical (because I don't have answers).

... And I realize I never talked about anti-lore in the blog post despite saying I would. Oops. But in short: leaving space for questions makes the world feel big. Answering all the questions and making every noun closely related to every other makes the world feel very small (see: the pitfalls of many Star Wars productions). In this case, it is a question we'll answer if we think we can make it an interesting and worthwhile experience in the game. If not, then it's up to you!

that's fine admiral David. It gives us fans an opportunity to make either mods or stories about this and hey I already got an idea for 3 other warships akin to the ziggurat already. Looking forward to another update for this game. Which reminds me when are you guys going to post this on steam or epic?
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Seeing a paragon with gigacannons and kinetic blasters scaring a radiant was very unexpected.

Colt_SCW

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Re: Narrative in 0.96 aka Movie Night With David
« Reply #28 on: June 04, 2023, 06:30:24 AM »

The plot of these story missions are definitely masterpiece. And I think one of the valuable points is that you are always willing to share your creative process! And I am glad to see that you guys have fully utilized sound effects in these plots. The scene where Macario first show up absolutely made me terrified.
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Dadada

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Re: Narrative in 0.96 aka Movie Night With David
« Reply #29 on: June 04, 2023, 07:57:10 AM »

The raid on the poor (wannabe) loyalist caught me off guard, him being "relieved" of duty was kinda fun. The absurd invitation maaaan, banana republic dictatorship and delusions crashed by reality and power politics, felt like a clown car suddenly swerving to one side and going down the cliff, &%ยง$!ing brutal, absurd stuff, I like it. I wonder what would have happened if I had fetched my marines for the descent...

I hope we can use _the names_ from _the list_ as a bargaining chip for or against the puppet master, maybe we could strengthen other claimants, maybe even set someone else up or at least dissuade the Diktat from raiding our colonies for "reasons". Maybe the gas station could lower the tariffs for me? :D
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