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[TauCetiRedGuard]

I've noticed that a noticeable portion of the community dislike the current implementation of Safety Overrides and I agree with them. SO as it exists right now gives far too many advantages for far too few disadvantages. The Peak performance time reduction can be easily mitigated completely by adding hardened subsystems, wolfpack tactics and a combat endurance officer to your ship and the range reduction only ends up forcing the player to give the ship short range and high flux weapons without any justification to pick more longer range options on SO ships. I would like to hear the changes you would make to rework SO and make it a more meaningful choice as part of ship loadouts. Here's mine:

- Remove top speed in combat bonus
- Add rate of fire bonus to weapons with base range exceeding 450
- Make Ship experience random malfunctions at a scaling rate based on total time deployed, with a pause on the timer after incurring a malfunction. Pause is removed when ship reaches low CR
- Increase ships system recharge rate by 1.5x
- Increase amount of damage taken by shields by 20%
- Return ability to be S-modded
- Add S-Mod penalty of reducing flux dissipation increase to 1.5x and reducing ship system recharge rate bonus to 1.25x

My goal with my proposed rework is to add a greater loadout variety to SO ships by providing a bonus to weapons that significantly exceed the range reduction cut off such as hyper velocity driver  to make them meaningfully compete with weapons like the assault chaingun. The increase to shield damage serves to reduce the ability of a SO ship to win protracted engagements with enemies and force them to leave earlier to vent hardflux. The random malfunctions are my attempt at reducing PPT stacking by adding a consequence for having SO ships deployed on the field for longer periods of time.

[CapnHector]

I get that Safety Overrides is not fun, because it usually lets you build a ship exactly one way. Although I would disagree -- I don't use SO builds myself mostly except on frigates, it is mostly just worse than not having it on cruisers, but I appreciate Safety Overrides enemies. The SO Apices, too, are an interesting addition to Ordos. But it can be reasonably argued it is boring and one-sided.

It is really not that strong though. It is obviously strong in three cases: frigates (which won't have endurance anyway), enabling strategies for the player, and the early game. And that's about it. I have yet to see anyone make a Double Ordo fleet using Safety Overrides on all ships, which we might expect if it's so great, while it's relatively simple with non-SO ships. If somebody has such a fleet, let's hear it. The downsides are too great already for ships larger than a destroyer. So I personally don't use it not because it is unfun or lame or broken but because it is mostly just bad in the late game.

And I made a thread last version about killing sim Onslaught with SO Dram and SO Tarsus so I am well aware of how strong it is under certain circumstances.

Edit: come to think of it Safety Overrides is almost mandatory on frigates though, as a ship class they're pretty bad without, there are only such as a few exceptions. So maybe that should be toned down. No idea how to without making the hullmod basically unusable for other ships though. Maybe just make them more maneuverable in general without SO.

[BaBosa]

There is an old thread that had a pretty long discussion on it that even Alex got in on. He said he was thinking of making it give an active ability that would trigger by pressing the vent button.

I wouldn't say it is not fun just because it pushes you to one build because it is more like if you want the fast close range build then you put on SO.
Range is so important in the game that a speed bonus from a hullmod is needed to make it viable at all and the range penalty is to prevent that speed boosting hullmod from being used to make an ultimate kiting ship.
That part of the SO is completely fine really.

The real issue is the 2x dissipation, dissipation is a core stat in almost every single build so doubling it is a huge deal. I think it was also supposed to help with the issue of having less time to engage an enemy because you take hard flux going in and out. So increasing the dissipation was so you can output the same damage in the reduced engagement time. Plus it adds to the fast paced rush playstyle, however even with the 1/3 PPT penalty it is still overturned.

The simplest fix would be to reduce the dissipation bonus to 1.5x and reduce the PPT penalty while still not being able to vent. Plus the 0-flux bonus should be totally removed from SO ships and instead just increase the base speed boost.

I don't think the malfunctions, system recharge rate or shield efficiency really need to be touched. The idea to increase fire rate of reduced ranged weapons is really cool though and would help with having more weapon choices which is nice.

[CapnHector]

Depends on what you mean by overtuned. I suppose that for frigates SO is probably overtuned since it is nigh mandatory for your non-phase frigates to do anything at all in the late game. For a cruiser the dissipation increase and speed increase in no way compensates for the loss of range, you generally are paying to cripple your ship and end with a ship that would deal good damage at close range if it ever got there. Maybe it works with the Aurora but even then I am skeptical, that ship looks like with an SO build it won't have the DPS or endurance for the most difficult fights in the game. For destroyers I am uncertain, maybe it is good for Manticore (LP), but are there more examples. I would certainly much rather bring an Enforcer with range than SO to an Ordo fight. The latter will just explode accomplishing nothing.

Edit to add: this can all be summarized as, frigates need the speed and dissipation late game, since they don't have the range, damage or endurance, so SO is mandatory. Destroyers have decent damage anyway, can't dodge and can't take the return fire so they'd rather have the range and SO is probably bad. Cruisers can't do anything with 450 range so SO is certainly bad. And sure, you could talk about the earlier parts of the game rather than fights vs the strongest fleets, but then, the objectively strongest strategy for early game is complete missions with a single Dram or smuggle with whatever cheap freighters you find, then go buy whatever you want, so it would make more sense to talk about fun here.

A decent fix for SO would be 1.5x flux dissip (if that is perceived to be an issue) and range reduction to 450/700/900 based on ship size.

[BaBosa]

End game isn't all that matters when it comes to balance.

Thinking about it though, I think part of why SO doesn't work in end game fleets is due to weapons and that capitals can't use SO. Frigates and destroyers generally use HMGs, chainguns and heavy blasters which have the DPS and flux cost to fit with an SO build. But larger weapons have longer ranges and are balanced to have those ranges so cruiser and capital weapons are nerfed when using SO while frigates and destroyers aren't really. The idea to increase rate of fire by the amount of range reduced might help here.
Also, while I said speed does make up for reduced range, it doesn't matter if the burst damage is enough to kill before a ship gets into range so I think for an end game SO fleet, you'd need anchors, ie capitals that can take the brunt but they can't keep up with the SO ships so SO ships would waste a lot of precious PPT waiting for them to move up and they wouldn't be benefiting from the 2x dissipation which is core to making the SO fleet work.
Another issue is that while the speed bonus is lower for bigger ships, the range penalty is the same so then it's the dissipation bonus making up for the range penalty but you also still have the PPT and OP penalty.

Edit: I am slow.

The range thresholds would probably be more like 450/500/600/700

[CapnHector]

If you're thinking about Ordo fights, then the problem with destroyers is that ships such as the Enforcer or Hammerhead simply can't fight the enemy at 450 range. They do not have the defensive stats and get overwhelmed and die before they can deliver their damage. Having a capital ship for cover that keeps its distance at 1000 range does not help when the Safety Overrides ship needs to get closer than that to do anything, and there is no taunt mechanic to make the enemy focus on the capital if the SO ship is closer or not keep a distance to the capital and pursue the SO ship. By contrast if you put Railguns or HVDs with ITU on an Enforcer then it can maintain a respectable distance from the enemy, keep firing and benefit from cover, too. SO can't win by picking and choosing engagements either because it'll run out of PPT and also because Glimmers are faster. That is why SO is the hullmod where you can make literally any ship starting from a 1 DP Kite with 6 D-mods defeat an Onslaught in the sim under player control if you can just put the SO on it, and yet in the endgame in a fleet setting ships with the hullmod are generally worse than those without (except frigates and Manticore LP).

I tried all kinds of Enforcer builds last version to complement my Derelict Ordo farming fleet where the Ramparts were doing the tanking, and close range builds with HMGs were just honestly the most pathetic of the bunch.

[Buggie]

I get that Safety Overrides is not fun, because it usually lets you build a ship exactly one way. Although I would disagree -- I don't use SO builds myself mostly except on frigates, it is mostly just worse than not having it on cruisers, but I appreciate Safety Overrides enemies. The SO Apices, too, are an interesting addition to Ordos. But it can be reasonably argued it is boring and one-sided.

It is really not that strong though. It is obviously strong in three cases: frigates (which won't have endurance anyway), enabling strategies for the player, and the early game. And that's about it. I have yet to see anyone make a Double Ordo fleet using Safety Overrides on all ships, which we might expect if it's so great, while it's relatively simple with non-SO ships. If somebody has such a fleet, let's hear it. The downsides are too great already for ships larger than a destroyer. So I personally don't use it not because it is unfun or lame or broken but because it is mostly just bad in the late game.

And I made a thread last version about killing sim Onslaught with SO Dram and SO Tarsus so I am well aware of how strong it is under certain circumstances.

Edit: come to think of it Safety Overrides is almost mandatory on frigates though, as a ship class they're pretty bad without, there are only such as a few exceptions. So maybe that should be toned down. No idea how to without making the hullmod basically unusable for other ships though. Maybe just make them more maneuverable in general without SO.

Why would a whole fleet using so matter? SO is broken because the player can abuse it, not the ai. Do the same tests you do with your fleets but replace your flagship with a ship that is a good safety overrides candidate like an aurora. You will win far more convincingly, at least if you're a good pilot.

[Grievous69]

Not even that, there are yt videos of a fleet of just SO Hyperions, ALL AI controlled smashing Ordos. I reckon it's even better now with Novas being easy to kill, better medium energies and s-mod bonuses. But yeah the true strength is having your ships do the distracting, while you faceroll everything in a SO flagship.

[CapnHector]

Please note the link to SO Dram taking out Onslaught under player control. However, the player can also chain deploy Afflictors, spam PCLs with a Falcon (P), or fly a Ziggurat, so the player being able to exploit something is not particularly unusual and the questions there should be whether it is fun, not whether it is strong (except if it's too strong to be interesting - but SO ships don't solo fleets like Ziggy).

However, OP's argument was not that it is strong for the player but that the downsides are too few and can be negated, so if SO is not strong for ships of the fleet then it seems this is the case for the player only rather than generally.

SO Hyperions are not a particularly strong Ordo hunting fleet. They can do one Ordo but not several, and will take losses.

[Grievous69]

Most of the community that's not a fan of SO, dislikes the part about it being boring and one dimensional. I'm sure people now there are better combinations to delete enemy fleets. The point is how SO ships don't play by the same rules as every other ship in the game, has some nasty interactions (mostly frigates and some cruisers), do nothing about missiles, and have ridiculous buffs that straight up remove weaknesses on some ships.

And every single downside is a non issue in the first half of the game. Where fights are so short you don't care about PPT since you kill the enemy even faster than before. Short range is also not a big deal until death fleets become a thing. So all in all, it's a boring dull cheese, where the problem isn't it being the strongest type of cheese, rather the type that takes away the unique combat mechanics of the game.

I'm glad the community shifted the suggestion lately for new players. Instead of "just put SO lol" as a tip for making the game easier, now I've seen people advise not to do it, so they don't get used to the "wrong" mechanics, and avoid learning the combat properly.

[CapnHector]

Yeah, despite defending its balance aspects here I'd be fine with relegating SO to something that only occurs in Luddic Path and Remnant ships, so we keep the interesting enemy aspect but don't have to deal with all the potential balance issues from the hullmod. It's not particularly good or interesting anyway except on particular ships that are clearly built for it and arguably those could just as well have it built in. Though we'd need some twitchier frigates to keep that aspect of the game going if SO Hyperion is no longer available for the player.

[BigBrainEnergy]

It would be interesting to temporarily disable SO for the player and see how the community feels about the hulls they would normally put SO on.

[Megas]

I do not like SO because it guts shot range and PPT, and player cannot drop shields with vents (NPCs do not care).  However, I think some NPC ships need it to mitigate AI flaws and/or insufficient dissipation or firepower.  It gets tiring watching a high-tech ship (especially Hyperion or Fury) spend way too much time backpedaling with shields up from an enemy then either dying or burning out too much PPT.  Zero-flux bonus helps it get away faster and waste less time backpedaling like a coward.

[Grievous69]

So if you find some ships really bad without SO, that's a major concern right there. Norhing should be balanced around gimmicky hullmods. And I'm not confirming these ships are, just stating generally.

[eert5rty7u8i9i7u6yrewqdef]

Not even that, there are yt videos of a fleet of just SO Hyperions, ALL AI controlled smashing Ordos. I reckon it's even better now with Novas being easy to kill, better medium energies and s-mod bonuses. But yeah the true strength is having your ships do the distracting, while you faceroll everything in a SO flagship.

Depending on the video, they might have starship legends installed, level 7 officers, and something that increases PPT beyond what is possible in vanilla.

Vanilla Hyperions with 11 officers player included struggled to beat two Ordos, always sustained notable losses, and was nearly out of CR, typically in the critical malfunction range. This required careful player management from the fleet command screen, just full assaulting always resulted in losing. This was last version before delicate machinery was added. It is no longer possible to do this.

16 Vanilla Hyperions, five with ideal mercenaries gotten through the mercenary exploit, could full assault double ordo. But that's a minimum of 480 supplies per month, and five story points every two years. You're paying for comical power with comical expense. Likewise what fleet isn't going to be completely broken with 16 level six captains?

As for why safety overrides feels bad, it's due to the zero flux boost mechanic. Faster ships aren't faster if the same tier enemy has zero flux, which means faster ships need safety overrides to actually be faster. If the ZFB were changed, or if another hullmod provided constant ZFB, you would see a reduction on SO use.