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Author Topic: Update Core World Market Conditions  (Read 931 times)

confer0

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Update Core World Market Conditions
« on: May 30, 2023, 02:25:19 PM »

A lot of the core worlds have been left relatively barren of market conditions, probably due in part to how things got refactored between the different market updates. Many are missing conditions that they should have, and others have conditions that they shouldn't. Although a lot of the worlds are technically terraformed in some way, so are a lot of the other habitable worlds outside the core. So strictly speaking, the core worlds should match pretty close with the current parameters for how planets are generated.

I've gone through all the core worlds and compared their planet types to how that type would be generated, and compiled a list of the changes that would have to be made to bring them in line. In most cases, it's just a slight tweak of the conditions that has little to no impact on the game. For a few, the changes can have a somewhat larger economic impact, and could warrant testing before committing to implementation. There's also a couple cases where I feel that a change of the actual planet type would be in order.

Everything has been listed out in the spoiler below. I've also created a lightweight mod that implements these changes in a new save, linked here:
https://github.com/confer0/MarketConditionTweaks

Spoiler

Arcadia
Spoiler
Nomios
Spoiler
Type: Cryovolcanic > Rocky Ice
Atmosphere: Thin > No
Organics: Trace > None
Volatiles: Abundant > Diffuse
Cryovolcanic would call for tectonic activity, which feels incompatible with a cryosanctum. Could choose rocky ice or frozen, selected rocky ice since it's fairly close to its star, cold is more sensible. Per rocky ice's requirements, removed atmosphere and organics, and dropped volatiles to the maximum valid.
[close]
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Askonia
Spoiler
Crour
Spoiler
Atmosphere: Thin > No
Barren-type worlds prohibit atmosphere.
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Umbra
Spoiler
Atmosphere: Thin > No
Barren-type worlds prohibit atmosphere.
[close]
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Aztlan
Spoiler
Chicomoztoc
Spoiler
Habitable: Yes > No
Farmland: Poor > None
Barren-desert worlds are not habitable, and the use of underground hive cities like Sindria is consistent with uninhabitability. Planet type is retained, and consequently habitability and farmland are removed.
[close]
[close]

Canann
Spoiler
Asher
Spoiler
Organics: None > Common
Not required for a barren-desert world, but is consistent with maximum. This is done to compensate the Church for the removal of organics from Hesperus.
[close]
[close]

Corvus
Spoiler
Asharu
Spoiler
Weather: None > Extreme
Desert worlds have extreme weather, and it's consistent with Asharu being a bit of a dump now that terraforming is aborted and the shade got lost.
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Jangala
Spoiler
Temperature: None > Hot
Jungle worlds are hot.
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Garnir
Spoiler
Tectonics: None > Active
Metal Ore: None > Sparse
Temperature: Cold > Very Cold
Matching requirements for cryovolcanic worlds. Economic effect of 2 ore export is minimal.
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Eos Exodus
Spoiler
Tartessus
Spoiler
Temperature: Normal > Hot
Organics: Trace > Common
Arid worlds are hot and have at least common organics. No mines means no economic impact, but selected minimum anyway.
[close]
Baetis
Spoiler
Atmosphere: Thin > No
Volatiles: Plentiful > Trace
Barren-type worlds prohibit atmosphere, and limit volatiles to trace. Description remains tentatively accurate. No mines, no economic impact.
[close]
Hesperus
Spoiler
Organics: Abundant > None
Atmosphere: Thin > None
Description: "Organics" > "Ore" or ""
Barren-type worlds prohibit atmosphere and organics. Presence of organics is likely a holdover. Economic impact of losing 7 is taken up by changes to Asher producing 6.
[close]
[close]

Galatia
Spoiler
Ancyra
Spoiler
Farmland: None > Poor
Organics: None > Common
Arid worlds have farmland and organics. No economic impact due to lack of industries. It's sensible that the Hegemony wouldn't bother exploiting them, given Jangala and Eventide are so close.
[close]
[close]

Hybrasil
Spoiler
Eochu Bres
Spoiler
Temperature: Normal > Cold
Organics: Trace > Common
Tundra worlds are cold and have at least common organics. No mining, no economic impact. Note: Solar Array currently doesn't negate Cold, but maybe it should?
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Crom Cruach
Spoiler
Temperature: Hot > Cold
Atmosphere: Thin > None
Barren-type worlds prohibit atmosphere. Far from primary makes cold more suitable.
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Cethlenn
Spoiler
Temperature: Cold > Very Cold
Tectonics: None > Active
Organics: Common > None
Metal Ore: None > Sparse
Volatiles: None > Trace
Description: "Organics" > "Volatiles"
Matching requirements for cryovolcanic worlds. Economic shift is small thanks to low population, though independents lose their source of 4 organics. Ailmar compensates.
[close]
Donn
Spoiler
Volatiles: Abundant > Trace
Barren-type worlds limit volatiles to trace. Economic shift is minimal, pirates have larger sources. Description is interested in heavy metals, not volatiles.
[close]
[close]

Kumari Kandam
Spoiler
Chalcedon
Spoiler
Light: Normal > Poor
Organics: Trace > Common
Terran eccentric worlds have poor light and at least common organics. Economic impact is minimal, Chalcedon already satisfied the Path's in-faction demand.
[close]
Olinadu
Spoiler
Temperature: Cold > Very Cold
Tectonics: None > Active
Organics: Trace > None
Metal Ore: None > Sparse
Volatiles: Abundant > Plentiful
Everything but volatiles is for matching requirements for cryovolcanic worlds. Volatiles are increased since it alleges to be a 'leading producer' for the League's volatiles. Brings production to 4. Still feels low, but hard to increase further without touching something else.
[close]
[close]

Magec
Spoiler
Maxios
Spoiler
Atmosphere: Thin > None
Barren-type worlds prohibit atmosphere. Could also change type to barren-bombarded.
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Maxios (Alternative)
Spoiler
Type: Barren > Barren-desert
Lore states that terraforming was occurring on Maxios and then collapsed. A barren-desert maintains a thin but uninhabitable atmosphere that can't block asteroids, which could be another good fit.
[close]
Tibicena
Spoiler
Tectonic Activity: Active > None
Barren-type worlds prohibit tectonic activity. Rocky unstable are the exception, but must be moons of gas giants.
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Tibicena (Alternative)
Spoiler
Type: Rocky Metallic > Minor Volcanic
Atmosphere: No > Thin
Temperature: Normal > Hot
Enables retention of tectonic activity, if that is preferred. Description does not emphasize it.
[close]
[close]

Naraka
Spoiler
Yama
Spoiler
Temperature: Normal > Hot
Organics: None > Common
Matching requirements for arid worlds. No mining, no economic impact.
[close]
Nachiketa
Spoiler
Temperature: Normal > Hot
Not strictly required, but brings it in line with its neighbors.
[close]
[close]

Samarra
Spoiler
Eventide
Spoiler
Volatiles: Abundant > Diffuse
Organics: Trace > Common
Matching requirements for terran eccentric worlds. MAJOR economic impact, as Eventide is the only 7 volatiles exporter, and that's needed by Sindria. This proposal seeks to compensate with changes to Ilm.
[close]
Orthrus
Spoiler
Atmosphere: Thin > No
Description: Make it display
Barren-type worlds prohibit atmosphere. The custom description added in 0.96 isn't appearing in-game.
[close]
[close]

Thule
Spoiler
Kazeron
Spoiler
Atmosphere: Normal > No
Barren-type worlds prohibit atmosphere. Consistent with description and appearance.
[close]
Thulian Raider Base
Spoiler
Temperature: Cold > Normal
Temperature is technically valid, but no other stations have a temperature condition.
[close]
[close]

Tyle
Spoiler
Cibola
Spoiler
Temperature: Normal > Hot
Weather: Normal > Extreme
Organics: Trace > None
Matching requirements for desert world. Loss of 5 organics export will be compensated by Madeira.
[close]
Madeira
Spoiler
Temperature: Normal > Cold
Organics: None > Common
Volatiles: Diffuse > Trace
Population: 6 > 5
Temperature and organics are set as required for a tundra world. This alone would lead to an export of 7, due to population and administrator. That feels like it steps on Salamanca's toes. Hence, reduce population to 5. Brings organics export to 6, which does still supply Kazeron, but not Mazalot. Decreases fuel export from 7 to 6, but there's no in-faction shakeup because the only one who needs 7+ is Kazeron, at 8. Population decrease is also sensible because description says it has a small population. Volatiles decrease is done because description says it should be reliant on outside resources, and this stops it from being too self-reliant.
[close]
[close]

Valhalla
Spoiler
Raesvelg
Spoiler
Metal Ore: None > Sparse
Frozen world requires at least sparse ore. Minor economic impact.
[close]
Skathi
Spoiler
Metal Ore: None > Sparse
Frozen world requires at least sparse ore. Minor economic impact.
[close]
[close]

Westernesse
Spoiler
Horn
Spoiler
Type: Rocky Unstable > Minor Lava
All Conditions: Automatic
Rocky unstable worlds are required to orbit a gas giant, which is what continually destabilizes them. Since Horn orbits a star, it must instead have innate volcanism.
[close]
Fikenhild
Spoiler
Organics: None > Common
Water world requires at least common organics. No mining, no economic effect.
[close]
Suddene
Spoiler
Habitable: Yes > No
Barren-desert worlds are not habitable. Given that it's stated to be only a century or two from total environmental collapse and the atmosphere has already thinned, it's probably not habitable any more.
[close]
Ailmar
Spoiler
Organics: None > Common
Tundra world requires at least common organics. Notable economic effect, changes it from a -5 importer to a +6 exporter. Also more than compensates for the loss of Cethlenn's 4 export.
[close]
[close]

Yma
Spoiler
Hanan Pacha
Spoiler
Atmosphere: Normal > Thin
Meteor impacts require a thin atmosphere.
[close]
Salamanca
Spoiler
Atmosphere: Dense > Toxic
Metal Ore: None > Sparse
Toxic world requires toxic atmosphere, and at least sparse ore.
[close]
Qaras
Spoiler
Temperature: Cold
Tundra world requires cold. That one tiny mirror at that distance from a white dwarf isn't going to cut it.
[close]
[close]

Zagan
Spoiler
Mazalot
Spoiler
Appearance: Terran Eccentric > Arid
Organics: None > Common
Illustration: Make it display
Arid world requires at least common organics. Orbital appearance is set to terran eccentric, but planet type, description, and illustration more closely fit arid. Also, said illustration doesn't properly display.
[close]
Ilm
Spoiler
Temperature: Cold > Very Cold
Metal Ore: None > Sparse
Industry Changes: Improve Mining
Temperature and ore are as required for a cryovolcanic world. Improvements on mining are done to bring volatiles export to 7, making up for the loss of Eventide's 7. This is needed to support the Diktat, and actually makes a lot of sense in my opinion. The Hegemony isn't inclined to support the Sindrian Mutiny, but both the League and TT are known to lend them aid, and Ilm is allegedly owned by both. Sindria is dependent on Ilm for volatiles, and Kazeron is dependent on Sindria for fuel.
[close]
[close]

A lot of these changes are just 'add sparse ore', which is fairly unexciting, and leads to a gluttony of additional ore exporters. This arises because several types of world are coded to always have at least sparse ore, mandating its presence in the core. Frozen, cryovolcanic, irradiated, and toxic worlds are all set to always have some ore. If this were changed in worldgen, then all the 'add sparse ore' recommendations above could be disregarded.

Separate to these changes, it could also be worth salting a couple non-mining worlds that lack other conditions with sparse to moderate quantities of ore and rare ore.

[close]

I just cleaned up the double post -G
« Last Edit: May 31, 2023, 08:56:27 AM by Gothars »
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Wyvern

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Re: Update Core World Market Conditions
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2023, 03:15:20 PM »

While this is overall excellent work, I'd note that I've definitely seen procgen Terran-Eccentric worlds that don't have the Poor Light condition, so I'm not sure why you think that's a requirement for the planet type.
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Wyvern is 100% correct about the math.

confer0

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Re: Update Core World Market Conditions
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2023, 03:30:43 PM »

It's based off my reading of condition_gen_data, which I'll admit has been a learning experience and could have subtle flaws.
That said, I can't say I've ever seen a procgen Terran-Eccentric without the poor light condition, and I just generated a few sectors with more than a dozen between them. If it even is possible in vanilla, it's extraordinarily rare.
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Wyvern

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Re: Update Core World Market Conditions
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2023, 03:34:12 PM »

It's possible that it's been changed since the last time I really went looking - I haven't played a lot of games in 0.96 yet, and Terran-Eccentric worlds are fairly rare.

It may be that it is a default trait for planets with that type? But I most commonly see Terran-Eccentric worlds showing up as moons around gas giants, at which point lighting varies by host star and range to the parent gas-giant.
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Wyvern is 100% correct about the math.

confer0

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Re: Update Core World Market Conditions
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2023, 03:38:11 PM »

Based on my reading it's a default trait, in the same way that habitable is. I'm looking at a sector which has an Eccentric, a normal Terran, and a Desert around a giant, and only the Eccentric has poor light. In the same save there's an Eccentric orbiting a star directly, and despite being fairly close it again has poor light. So I'm fairly confident that it is a prerequisite - though I'm welcome to any counterexamples.
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SafariJohn

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Re: Update Core World Market Conditions
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2023, 06:02:49 PM »

Terran Eccentric proc-gen always has Poor Light. I think it is technically possible for a Terran Eccentric to get Darkness instead, but not in vanilla.
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Alex

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Re: Update Core World Market Conditions
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2023, 07:07:57 PM »

I appreciate the amount of work it took to put this together, and I think you did a nice job with it! ... unfortunately, I think the premise has a bit of a fundamental problem - the hand-made core worlds are not in any sense required to adhere to the same range of possibilities that procgen can produce. It's rather the opposite - it's an opportunity to do things outside that, and maybe tell a little bit of a story or create something a little more unique through that.

It's certainly true that some of the conditions on the could use another look, though - a lot of it, as I think you said, is fairly old stuff. I just don't think that "match what procgen can do" is the right starting point for this.
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SafariJohn

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Re: Update Core World Market Conditions
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2023, 07:24:31 PM »

A better idea would be to make it possible to build all the core world configs yourself out in the proc gen wilderness. The main sticking point is stations, particularly like the Mimir Siphon (synced to a colonized moon) and of course free-floating stations.
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confer0

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Re: Update Core World Market Conditions
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2023, 07:29:56 PM »

I can certainly appreciate that logic. Quite honestly, there's a lot of little bits and pieces that could easily be put down to 'we terraformed a little harder around here'. I listed every deviation I found, and while I do feel some of them are reasonable fixes, others can easily be backed up with a good narrative. My pendantry around Horn is probably the best example of that, I only changed it because rocky unstables aren't 'supposed' to orbit stars. Or the PK'd worlds, which have obviously had some recent shakeups that the rest of the planets in the sector haven't dealt with.
On the other hand, I think Kazeron probably does deserve to have airless. And the presence of organics on frozen worlds is something that I feel should either be corrected, or have a story put behind it, since it's something that can be picked up fairly easily if someone's looking at the markets.

At the same time though, I do actually feel that "match procgen" is a good starting point... though that could just as easily mean making progcen match with what the core does. If having a rocky unstable world orbit a star is a good story, then maybe it should be possible elsewhere too. Or a rare chance for thin atmospheres on barren worlds hinting at aborted terraforming, in the same way that we can occasionally find pollution on any world.
Obviously, it's your game. But I personally prize consistency, because it makes the things that break the mold that much more significant. If the core starts by matching procgen, then it gives a stronger foundation to tell an intentional narrative about why this particular world has a feature that won't be found anywhere else. And this can easily be me projecting my own technique, but I feel like it also gives a prompt for what story has to be told to justify something.

Maybe to use the current state of Chicomoztoc as an example - since a thin-but-habitable atmosphere should be impossible under procgen, then it should suggest that there's been intentional action to maintain a high proportion of oxygen despite the low pressure, which could make for a story. Why they'd do that, how it's done... But I digress.
I think the biggest irony I encountered working on this is that Mairaath actually matched the requirements for a desert world to a tee. Despite the initial apocalypse, the planet has actually stabilized into the state one would expect from every other desert.

Anyway, I think that's enough rambling for one comment. Thanks for your time, and for the amazing game! It's an amazing gameplay and storytelling experience.
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BaBosa

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Re: Update Core World Market Conditions
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2023, 08:33:03 PM »

It would be nice to have all the little boring differences brought into line and then have little story elements explaining the others and possibly adding those rare exceptions added to the procgen.
Staions probably do need another look through though, It always bugs me how these stations can have only 100% hazard out in random space when I can't make them. I feel like they should have a default 200% hazard and reduced growth and then be available for the player to build. It would make for an interesting decision if you could build them around high hazard worlds to cap the hazard at 200% at the cost of growth. And gas giant colonies would only be able to have a station colony.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2023, 08:37:43 PM by BaBosa »
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confer0

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Re: Update Core World Market Conditions
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2023, 05:27:06 AM »

Yes, that's something I've been thinking about for a little while too. I'd decided against putting it here since this post was about existing conditions, but it's always been a little funny that the lack of air and gravity stops mattering when you get to space. 200% feels right for me, 50% for lack of atmosphere, 50% for no gravity, but also an accessibility bonus a-la low gravity? But that's probably a separate suggestion thread.
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SafariJohn

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Re: Update Core World Market Conditions
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2023, 07:11:02 AM »

Some gravity conditions I did for a mod that did not pan out:

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Alex

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Re: Update Core World Market Conditions
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2023, 08:41:40 AM »

I think Kazeron probably does deserve to have airless.

Yep, that checks out; made a note.

Maybe to use the current state of Chicomoztoc as an example - since a thin-but-habitable atmosphere should be impossible under procgen, then it should suggest that there's been intentional action to maintain a high proportion of oxygen despite the low pressure, which could make for a story. Why they'd do that, how it's done... But I digress.

The intended "story" there is that it had a normal, breathable atmosphere terraformed onto it, but has been losing it over a fairly short timescale, both due to instrial pollution and the breakdown of machinery. It's still breathable, but probably not for long periods and not without consequences.

Anyway, I think that's enough rambling for one comment. Thanks for your time, and for the amazing game! It's an amazing gameplay and storytelling experience.

Ahh, thank *you*!


Some gravity conditions I did for a mod that did not pan out:

Very cool, I love these!
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SCC

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Re: Update Core World Market Conditions
« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2023, 10:13:51 AM »

The intended "story" there is that it had a normal, breathable atmosphere terraformed onto it, but has been losing it over a fairly short timescale
I know that you mean well, but can't help but notice the lack of sense of scale. Short time to lose a significant part of the atmosphere is one to ten million years. It would be far more likely for the terraforming process to have been stopped too soon.
But then again, that leads you to wonder what is so difficult about lobbing cold asteroids and comets at the planet and the rest of terraforming "technology" that has been lost...

Alex

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Re: Update Core World Market Conditions
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2023, 10:20:16 AM »

(I feel like given the potential high-technology functionality of the machinery used in producing/maintaining the atmosphere, and its partial breakdown, pretty much any timescale can be justified with a minimum of handwaving. And besides, how much is "thin", what does "losing it" mean in this context, and so on? It's just a question of how much you want to exercise your imagination; with these things it's equally easy to come up with reasons for both why it does and doesn't make sense. Which direction you choose is, of course, up to you.)
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