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Author Topic: the 4 way choice in the skill points distribution is unfun  (Read 8077 times)

Grievous69

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Re: the 4 way choice in the skill points distribution is unfun
« Reply #60 on: May 22, 2023, 03:46:58 AM »

Maybe I'm misremembering but wasn't the increase for base officers made so the impact is less reliant on skills? I know you could get like 4 extra officers that way. So now we have more base officers but can only get 2 more out of a skill.
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SCC

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Re: the 4 way choice in the skill points distribution is unfun
« Reply #61 on: May 22, 2023, 03:51:19 AM »

Maybe I'm misremembering but wasn't the increase for base officers made so the impact is less reliant on skills? I know you could get like 4 extra officers that way. So now we have more base officers but can only get 2 more out of a skill.
You started with 4 and could get 6 more. Which is precisely the problem, because the player (and perhaps more importantly, everyone else) starts with 2 high tier leadership skills for free, in comparison to what previously was only one of the available ways to spend your skill points. 80% of your deployed DP being boosted by officers isn't a playstyle you have to invest into, it's just what happens if you don't go out of your way to abuse DO/SD.

kenwth81

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Re: the 4 way choice in the skill points distribution is unfun
« Reply #62 on: May 22, 2023, 03:57:00 AM »

Yeah you know what's funny. Combat skills getting nerfed because a couple of skilled players could solo fleets with some ships. Now we're on the other end where people show off their death fleet by just pressing autopilot and watching the pretty explosions. This to me sounds even more lame than the original problem.

I thought you disagree that death fleet is better than One man army.

It will probably be nerfed eventually. Have fun while it lasts.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2023, 03:59:06 AM by kenwth81 »
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Megas

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Re: the 4 way choice in the skill points distribution is unfun
« Reply #63 on: May 22, 2023, 03:58:01 AM »

I don't remember Alex making the decision to increase the baseline officer number from 4 to 8 being in response to any particular player complaint. It certainly came out of the left field to me.
I remember people posting that the "more officer" skill had the biggest increase in power and was practically mandatory, and unless player had an all-capital fleet, player wanted more than four officers to give every ship that could be deployed an officer.  Even if I had all capitals, I still wanted at least six officers since without +xp% multipliers and DP pool limits, I could have a huge fleet with a primary fighting fleet and substitute ships to deploy in case main ships were too worn down from attrition, like a sports team.  Today, with +xp% and DP pools, player is incentivized to bring only enough to fit everything on the field, with no substitutes because they harm stats.

You misunderstood me. By "splitting" I meant officers have all the personal skills that exist in the game now. Skill system remains the same but the Combat tree now has upgraded variations of current skills that only the player can have, nobody else. This way you prevent ridiculously buffing Remnants and high end bounties.
I think that is what elite effects were supposed to do, but unfortunately, Officer Training and Cybernetic Augmentation give nearly as many to officers, and AI cores (the ones that make otherwise balanced Remnant hulls better than human ships and player has to fight late) have them all.  In effect, everyone has them, except the player's fleet that did not take officer skills for them.
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SCC

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Re: the 4 way choice in the skill points distribution is unfun
« Reply #64 on: May 22, 2023, 04:08:40 AM »

I remember people posting that the "more officer" skill had the biggest increase in power and was practically mandatory, and unless player had an all-capital fleet, player wanted more than four officers to give every ship that could be deployed an officer.
I must be built different, then. Officer skill always seemed like a waste of time to me. After I got all the combat and technology skills I wanted, Fleet Logistics, Fighter Doctrine and one level into Coordinated Manouvres seemed better value to me, and if I dipped into industry in any capacity, I might not have been able to afford even Fighter Doctrine, much less Officer Management. I didn't feel like I was missing out anything. I think I used carrier spam once, with cheats, to see how it works.

Megas

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Re: the 4 way choice in the skill points distribution is unfun
« Reply #65 on: May 22, 2023, 04:13:14 AM »

I think I had none, or only level one, because I had an all-capital fleet, and I took colony skills in Industry because I did not use AI cores.  (Which was a mistake because of Pather bug that blocked sabotage and easy Hegemony bribes.)  This was back when skills could not be reassigned.

I tried carrier spam, but unskilled (because I spec'ed for colonies and general-purpose brawling).  Unskilled Drover with Sparks fleet had no problem killing a single Ordos.  With skills, videos have shown Drovers could handle at least four Ordos at a time.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2023, 04:17:04 AM by Megas »
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kenwth81

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Re: the 4 way choice in the skill points distribution is unfun
« Reply #66 on: May 22, 2023, 05:09:31 AM »

I think I had none, or only level one, because I had an all-capital fleet, and I took colony skills in Industry because I did not use AI cores.  (Which was a mistake because of Pather bug that blocked sabotage and easy Hegemony bribes.)  This was back when skills could not be reassigned.

I tried carrier spam, but unskilled (because I spec'ed for colonies and general-purpose brawling).  Unskilled Drover with Sparks fleet had no problem killing a single Ordos.  With skills, videos have shown Drovers could handle at least four Ordos at a time.

Many people fly capital fleet and a small officer pool promote such fleet. The number of officers is probably increased to encourage people to fly more more diverse fleet and smaller ships. And probably why wolfpack skill and support doctrine was added, fleet limit removed.
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KDR_11k

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Re: the 4 way choice in the skill points distribution is unfun
« Reply #67 on: May 22, 2023, 07:03:19 AM »

To split it off completely also means that you can't really specialize your character for combat anymore, all characters will be equallly great at it. Which would be a shame, role-playing wise.

Nah, I meant officer co-piloting as an option. A player with more combat investment would not choose to do so since a player's cap is so much higher than an officer's.
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TaLaR

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Re: the 4 way choice in the skill points distribution is unfun
« Reply #68 on: May 22, 2023, 07:59:50 AM »

Are there still any findable 6-7-skill officers? Haven't seen any in last version... That, plus officer upgrades (+1 skill/+1 elite from Officer Training, +2 elite from cybernetic augmentation), would probably be overall better than getting personal skills directly in most cases (because you only pay 2 skill points).

Imo, this would make direct personals something to consider only in early game, then respec.

Player cap in combat-skill is not that high, if you don't want to actually sacrifice critical fleet-wides that are just as important for your piloted ship. My current build that has single focus of producing the most powerful Afflictors has only 7 personal skills.
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Amoebka

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Re: the 4 way choice in the skill points distribution is unfun
« Reply #69 on: May 22, 2023, 08:17:31 AM »

Mercs are level 6 with 2 elite skills, and you can find level 7s with 5 elite skills in cryopods. However, only 4 exist per sector, and they can be pretty much anywhere. I never find more than 1 during normal gameplay, and not always that either. Their skills are also fully random, so they tend to be worse than a player-trained level 6.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: the 4 way choice in the skill points distribution is unfun
« Reply #70 on: May 22, 2023, 12:16:14 PM »

I've found two level 7s so far in my campaign, but I agree that they are frequently not worth using due to random skills. One of mine was very good and the other was kinda awkward (both energy and ballistic mastery, no gunnery implants), but it kinda works well for a champion officer rn. I might end up ditching it at some point.
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PsychoThruster

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Re: the 4 way choice in the skill points distribution is unfun
« Reply #71 on: May 22, 2023, 01:00:40 PM »

I'd like to see all personal ship skills replaced with a "hull certification" skill line which combines the effects of all personal skills under the umbrellas of frigates/destroyers/cruisers/capitals. Each certification has five levels, so at level five it's like you have all personal ship skills for that hull type only, levels 1-4 are like having weaker versions of all the skills. Then retool the other skills dealing with officer's and their skills a bit. Like the leadership capstone instead of giving three personal skills to non-officered ships gives level 1 or 2 in certification level. Cybernetic augmentation gives plus 2 to all certification levels, letting an officer be very flexible. Things like that.

 
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KDR_11k

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Re: the 4 way choice in the skill points distribution is unfun
« Reply #72 on: May 22, 2023, 03:56:44 PM »

I'd like to see all personal ship skills replaced with a "hull certification" skill line which combines the effects of all personal skills under the umbrellas of frigates/destroyers/cruisers/capitals. Each certification has five levels, so at level five it's like you have all personal ship skills for that hull type only, levels 1-4 are like having weaker versions of all the skills. Then retool the other skills dealing with officer's and their skills a bit. Like the leadership capstone instead of giving three personal skills to non-officered ships gives level 1 or 2 in certification level. Cybernetic augmentation gives plus 2 to all certification levels, letting an officer be very flexible. Things like that.

One thing to avoid is skills that only do something when piloting a specific type of ship because those effectively lock you into that specific type or force you to re-spec any time you want to change your flagship type. That's why the shield skill also does something for phase ships.
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PsychoThruster

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Re: the 4 way choice in the skill points distribution is unfun
« Reply #73 on: May 22, 2023, 04:19:59 PM »

I don't mind that, and indeed prefer it. To me it's like a class selection in an rpg, but I get not everyone likes such limitations.
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itBeABruhMoment

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Re: the 4 way choice in the skill points distribution is unfun
« Reply #74 on: May 22, 2023, 05:43:34 PM »

I think it would be a good idea to make separate skill trees for the combat and campaign layers with separate pools of skill points or interleave combat and campaign related skills in a way that the player ends up with an equal amount of them. The player is spending a lot of time in both combat and the campaign so the player should progress in both over the course of the game. Requiring that the player not progress in one layer of the game to become more powerful in another is just a unfun decision. Skills should let the player choose how they want to improve their performance in the campaign and combat rather than whether they want to improve their skills in the campaign or combat.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2023, 05:49:49 PM by itBeABruhMoment »
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