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[eert5rty7u8i9i7u6yrewqdef]

Which just shows you've never bothered to actually do a by-the-numbers comparison of the Hyperion's performance (another ship which gets a bunch more complaints than the Gryphon, yet is pretty middling). The Hyperion is terrible when you look at how fast it actually kills enemy ships. It does a lot of jumping around so it's very flashy and there's a lot of burst damage all over the place to attract the player's attention when using a fleet of Hyperions (so it looks like there's always constant action all over the screen), but if you follow the path of any single Hyperion you'll see that it spends most of its time idling in safety away from the enemy fleet, looking for an opening. This was even when I bent the rules a bit and set all the officers to "Reckless" (despite all the other ships tested having "Aggressive" instead) to encourage it to engage more often. So it does a lot of burst damage but they're separated by long periods of 0 DPS...zero contribution to the battle.

I tested but never released the DPS numbers for the Hyperion under 0.95.1a because they always looked too low so I don't know if I did something wrong (wanted to do more testing before releasing the numbers but didn't get around to it), even when copying the different Hyperion builds I saw on the forums or on Youtube. But they pretty much underperformed compared to their DP cost...not Falcon/Eagle level bad but still pretty bad.

It's easy to see why the player would feel like the Hyperion is strong though, since 1) the player himself can pull a bunch of fun shenanigans with it that the AI can't and 2) the player using a fleet of Hyperions constantly sees a bunch of hectic action all over the place, because with a fleet of Hyperions there are always at least a couple which decided to actually attack instead of staying back. So that rapid shifting of attention gives the illusion of a lot of productivity. But actually quantitatively measuring its rate of killing enemy ships shows the Hyperion is pretty lackluster. That's why it's important to do formal methodical testing instead of relying on a player's gut instinct or "feelings" for feedback on game balance.

Old Vanilla double Heavy Blaster Hyperion with player and officer skills focused on damage and venting, struggled to beat double Ordo. The very same guy that started the whole "you can just spam Hyperions and full assualt" joke with his videos, uploaded a few more that removed all game mods that effected ship performance, and reduced his officers' level to 6, (it was at 7 due to mods). The result is he only barely won with three Hyperions being destroyed out of the 12 he sent. The battle required him to play fleet commander the entire time.
It's nowhere near as strong as people have made it out to be, and the addition of delicate machinery is absolutely overkill.

Double Blaster builds are too strong mind you, in comparison to other ships, just nowhere near as much as other's would lead you to believe.

When I was using a difficulty mod in .95 that reduces built in hullmods to a max of 1, I found double HB builds to no longer be viable, and replaced one of them with a phase lance. This brought in line with where it probably should be. This of course means a proper a proper nerf will be anything that eats a bit of OP, or built in hullmods, which is why I've started to recommend removing DM, and switching its shield to a 150 degree omni shield.

With the current balance, SO double HB builds are still the best in the A.I. hands, and there's really no comparison from testing. In the player's hands, certain builds that make use of built in expended mags, alongside ion pulser, mining blaster, and a thumper, are competitive with SO builds.

Sorry for further derailing this thread, I should probably start a high-tech balance thread, or Hyperion balance thread since I have an interest in it.

[CapnHector]

No worries, I don't have much more to say about this fleet for now, anyway. Maybe it'll improve if I ever find that Sarissa blueprint and then I'll post about it. That's the theory anyway since that fighter will provide both PD and anti-shield which are missing.

I will say I didn't find Hyperion spam to be particularly strong at Ordo farming last version, either using Ion Pulser - HMG - Heavy Blaster loadout. Hyperion + Glimmer (with Ion Pulser) spam could take out 1 Ordo with losses IIRC. Without player input or commands that is. Of course under player control it could take out a station last version but apparently no longer due to PPT.

[coldiceEVO]

Interesting missile and conv hanger build on 5 dmods. I might try it with other wings or weapons to abuse more with beam and emp. Anything to avoid normal shield to shield combat that this has no flux for.
Is hardened system necessary on top of support doctrine's combat edurance?

[CapnHector]

Interesting missile and conv hanger build on 5 dmods. I might try it with other wings or weapons to abuse more with beam and emp. Anything to avoid normal shield to shield combat that this has no flux for.
Is hardened system necessary on top of support doctrine's combat edurance?

No, in practice the combat capability is limited by the ammo for the large missile, not PPT. You will have no problems with PPT. Instead the main problem is the ship becomes largely useless if the missiles run out.

Tell me if you find a better configuration for it. I originally tried IR Autolance and / or ITU but dropped them for Militarized Subsystems to get +15 % CR and +5% damage from skills, and capacitors since that performed better in a fleet configuration. While shield tanking is not desirable, in practice based on sim testing and Ordo fighting experience, if you do not have capacitors on this thing a Radiant can take it out in one volley, which is bad.

If you want to improve this fleet easily there are at least two ways: 1) add officers with Target Analysis and Missile Specialization. This will increase the deployment cost for each ship by 3 DP, so a 33% increase, but will almost double the damage dealt by the missiles. I did not add officers just because I wanted to try a SD build, but I think it would be objectively better, and 2) add a playership for tanking, which removes the main problem with this fleet that the Ventures die fast due to not having the flux capacity for shield tanking.

[eert5rty7u8i9i7u6yrewqdef]

No worries, I don't have much more to say about this fleet for now, anyway. Maybe it'll improve if I ever find that Sarissa blueprint and then I'll post about it. That's the theory anyway since that fighter will provide both PD and anti-shield which are missing.

I will say I didn't find Hyperion spam to be particularly strong at Ordo farming last version, either using Ion Pulser - HMG - Heavy Blaster loadout. Hyperion + Glimmer (with Ion Pulser) spam could take out 1 Ordo with losses IIRC. Without player input or commands that is. Of course under player control it could take out a station last version but apparently no longer due to PPT.

Damaged remnant stations, and all level 1 stations are possible with to beat this version with a standard SO, double Heavy Blaster, HMG build.
Level three might be possible with a player piloted officer that has both missile specialization and system expertise, alongside two heavy blasters, a typhoon reaper launcher, and built in expanded missile racks. Might is the key word here, it would be very close especially with low tech star fortresses.

[coldiceEVO]

No, in practice the combat capability is limited by the ammo for the large missile, not PPT. You will have no problems with PPT. Instead the main problem is the ship becomes largely useless if the missiles run out.

Tell me if you find a better configuration for it. I originally tried IR Autolance and / or ITU but dropped them for Militarized Subsystems to get +15 % CR and +5% damage from skills, and capacitors since that performed better in a fleet configuration. While shield tanking is not desirable, in practice based on sim testing and Ordo fighting experience, if you do not have capacitors on this thing a Radiant can take it out in one volley, which is bad.

If you want to improve this fleet easily there are at least two ways: 1) add officers with Target Analysis and Missile Specialization. This will increase the deployment cost for each ship by 3 DP, so a 33% increase, but will almost double the damage dealt by the missiles. I did not add officers just because I wanted to try a SD build, but I think it would be objectively better, and 2) add a playership for tanking, which removes the main problem with this fleet that the Ventures die fast due to not having the flux capacity for shield tanking.

I wont have the time until weekend so here are just ideas, mainly left from my atlas mk2 days. Running out of missile is as good as it gets for the lackluster flux and op spent on fighters, with 5d screw up much of the flux trade.
Comparase to atlas, venture is durable, fires torpedoes faster, but really dont have enough for a sniper build, or carrys more missile for the dp and sp cost. Shield shunt could be a way to save flux. Dropping the fighter for closer range ke gun, SO maybe a way to live. Ion beam seems to be a better choice to support fighters at acceptable range with current build to keep itself safe from enemy guns. Using xyphose probably comes at a cost of dp.
Venture(p) removing 2 mid missile at front really hinder its fast rack punch. I guess we can try putting reaper at large rear missile and see if ai do cool moves at all. Not sure if squall fires at 180 degree.

[CapnHector]

No, in practice the combat capability is limited by the ammo for the large missile, not PPT. You will have no problems with PPT. Instead the main problem is the ship becomes largely useless if the missiles run out.

Tell me if you find a better configuration for it. I originally tried IR Autolance and / or ITU but dropped them for Militarized Subsystems to get +15 % CR and +5% damage from skills, and capacitors since that performed better in a fleet configuration. While shield tanking is not desirable, in practice based on sim testing and Ordo fighting experience, if you do not have capacitors on this thing a Radiant can take it out in one volley, which is bad.

If you want to improve this fleet easily there are at least two ways: 1) add officers with Target Analysis and Missile Specialization. This will increase the deployment cost for each ship by 3 DP, so a 33% increase, but will almost double the damage dealt by the missiles. I did not add officers just because I wanted to try a SD build, but I think it would be objectively better, and 2) add a playership for tanking, which removes the main problem with this fleet that the Ventures die fast due to not having the flux capacity for shield tanking.

I wont have the time until weekend so here are just ideas, mainly left from my atlas mk2 days. Running out of missile is as good as it gets for the lackluster flux and op spent on fighters, with 5d screw up much of the flux trade.
Comparase to atlas, venture is durable, fires torpedoes faster, but really dont have enough for a sniper build, or carrys more missile for the dp and sp cost. Shield shunt could be a way to save flux. Dropping the fighter for closer range ke gun, SO maybe a way to live. Ion beam seems to be a better choice to support fighters at acceptable range with current build to keep itself safe from enemy guns. Using xyphose probably comes at a cost of dp.
Venture(p) removing 2 mid missile at front really hinder its fast rack punch. I guess we can try putting reaper at large rear missile and see if ai do cool moves at all. Not sure if squall fires at 180 degree.

Unfortunately at least in the sim the Venture doesn't go backwards under AI control even if you put a Cyclone there. Otherwise that would likely be the best build.

Safety Overrides certainly makes the ship able to retreat better. However, it comes with the unfortunate downside of making the ships not able to cooperate as effectively. Due to OP requirements it requires S-Modding in Militarized Subsystems.

I found the original layout by optimizing a combat of 3 D-modded Ventures vs 1 sim Strike Radiant and the criteria was the Ventures must win the combat consistently, then the choice was the fastest and most reliable layout at doing so, and the original layout completes the test. However if I S-Mod in Militarized Subsystems, swap for HMGs rather than HVDs and install Safety Overrides at the cost of capacitors then instead of wins we get complete losses every time. Let me know if you do come up with a good build for it though.

Even Sarissa over Broadsword doesn't seem to fight Radiants better, unfortunately, but I haven't yet tested that as a monofleet.

[Sly]

Do you feel like you should be able to use the same ship that you can buy at any black market for everything in the game? Want to use just one civilian ship for haulin' and busting star fortresses? Need -500 surveying requirements on your Ordo farming fleet? Allow me to recommend the Venture Mk. II, a wonderful ship that can do anything in the game, without needing officers.  _{sorry it can't fight double Ordos, at least without officers, but you do gain a literal million exp for killing just one} I decided to farm Ordos using 225 DP of unofficered Ventures under AI control, and thought I'd share because it's pretty fun.

This is the first thing I've seen all week that made me laugh out loud. Shine on you crazy guy, with your silly, lumbering Venture mk.II fleet.

You find all kinds of fun stuff. I like that.

[CapnHector]

Do you feel like you should be able to use the same ship that you can buy at any black market for everything in the game? Want to use just one civilian ship for haulin' and busting star fortresses? Need -500 surveying requirements on your Ordo farming fleet? Allow me to recommend the Venture Mk. II, a wonderful ship that can do anything in the game, without needing officers.  _{sorry it can't fight double Ordos, at least without officers, but you do gain a literal million exp for killing just one} I decided to farm Ordos using 225 DP of unofficered Ventures under AI control, and thought I'd share because it's pretty fun.

This is the first thing I've seen all week that made me laugh out loud. Shine on you crazy guy, with your silly, lumbering Venture mk.II fleet.

You find all kinds of fun stuff. I like that.

Thanks! It was fun. I really enjoyed doing something new again. I'll dedicate this next build to you.

Although, believe it or not, my build in the OP which I found grinding and grinding against Radiants in the simulator is surprisingly optimal. I have now spent another day's gaming time budget on trying to improve the build without investing more SP. It's been almost impossible. Here is a list of things I've tried

- Shorter range, more flux efficient weapons
- Literally every single bomber with DTA (this actually works with the Legion, you can get infinite Hammers, but not with the Venture apparently since there isn't enough anti-shield even with Longbows)
- Sarissa
- DTA Broadswords
- DTA Thunders
- Locust + Hammers
- Squalls and HE bombers / Hammers
- Improving the flux stats significantly at cost of range
- Removing Converted Hangar to improve flux stats and guns

None of these have improved the build. At all. In fact it does worse.

I have finally been able to improve it slightly though, taking a cue from the standard overpowered Gryphon build. Compared with the original build I replaced Reapers with Breaches that are linked with the HVDs in weapon groups. This causes the AI to not hesitate using them which improves performance. Additionally I removed Militarized Subsystems for ITU and caps for an IR Autolance to deal more hull damage.



This build can take out Ordos cleaner, with often only a few losses even against strong Ordos, with the same parameters of 25 Ventures and no officers. I think it could take out a double Ordo if only it didn't run out of missiles after killing one, since the start of the fight is usually very clean, even if there are Radiants coming in, so long as you use orders as in the OP. I don't really see a solution to this, though; the main solution is Missile Specialization but I can't have 25 officers.

These Ventures work great as backup though, I have farmed some SP (which I spent on the Legions) using 4 Legions with this fleet and then it's easily a double Ordo fleet when you place the Legions in the front line.

[Üstad]

For a trash Venture fleet, sure. Derelict ops is still a problem for better missile spammers, like Gryphons, or figher/missile spammers, like Mora. The skill makes silly fleets like Ventures good, and it makes good fleets disgusting.

Without missile d-mods, derelict ops is just a 30% discount with no real strings attached. That's too much.

I don't think the game should be balanced around min-maxers. D mods already cause shield, weapon and armor problems. So they already cause problems without directly affecting missiles.

[Doctorhealsgood]

Guess i should say goodbye to Derelict operations when i can. At this rate alex is going to nuke it with a thermonuclear warhead.

[CapnHector]

>everybody saying it's Derelict Operations

Guys why can't it be that I'm just good at building Ventures

Edit to add: just for clarity, I'm being facetious. It is certainly part Derelict Operations. But also this fleet is built specifically to leverage the skill. I don't think you can just slap DO on any fleet and make it better, that doesn't correspond to my experience. DO Gryphons are certainly extremely strong but so are non-DO Gryphons. I figured Venture Mk. II is a strong DO ship because 1) it gets one free D-mod that doesn't affect combat and 2) it has missiles.

[Megas]

If I wanted to try DO, I probably would have grabbed random ships within reach or favored a heavy conventional warship fleet (like Shrikes, Enforcers, Eagle, Dominator, Eradicator-P, Onslaught, stuff like that) with maybe a few carriers (because I would have no Leadership, no carrier skills).

I would have taken Derelict Ops. as an alternative to Hull Restoration and not care about d-mods.  I would have used DO casually, and not try to min-max anything except maybe cram as many automated ships as I could with the Combat/Tech/Industry build I have used.  I bet that would end badly.

Is DO even overpowered without significant Leadership (enough to get a capstone)?  Even if it is, is it overpowered enough to be worth more than two skills since player is forced to take a second non-combat Industry skill to unlock the Industry capstone?  That said, I suppose Containment Procedures may be somewhat necessary if ships are exploding and crew are dying all of the time to get more and more d-mods.

[kenwth81]

Derelict Operations is incredibly strong. 

[Lawrence Master-blaster]

Guys why can't it be that I'm just good at building Ventures

Well no, it's a large missile slot for 14 DP