Fractal Softworks Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

Pages: [1] 2

Author Topic: Opinion on the IR autolance?  (Read 2624 times)

Zaizai

  • Lieutenant
  • **
  • Posts: 87
    • View Profile
Opinion on the IR autolance?
« on: May 16, 2023, 07:06:12 PM »

It didn't click for me...its only use is by the time I'm dealing hull damage, but when I reach that point I'm already winning. This means that I'm giving up a medium energy weapon that could be used to win the actual flux fight, to inflict a bit more damage and kill the enemy a bit faster once I already pretty much won... I guess you can use it against fighters on bigger ships? 
I wish you could keep the beam on all the time like every other beam that's not a PD
Logged

eert5rty7u8i9i7u6yrewqdef

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 333
    • View Profile
Re: Opinion on the IR autolance?
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2023, 07:25:30 PM »

It's a significantly worse thumper that's supposed to be an anti-fighter weapon yet doesn't prioritize fighters.
Logged

Brainwright

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 597
    • View Profile
Re: Opinion on the IR autolance?
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2023, 07:30:55 PM »

Unlike the thumper, it's got extreme range poke that can keep the shields up on fast, annoying ships.
Logged

Lucky33

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 894
    • View Profile
Re: Opinion on the IR autolance?
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2023, 07:58:18 PM »

New flashlight! Yay!
Logged

Zaizai

  • Lieutenant
  • **
  • Posts: 87
    • View Profile
Re: Opinion on the IR autolance?
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2023, 08:25:59 PM »

Unlike the thumper, it's got extreme range poke that can keep the shields up on fast, annoying ships.
but the thumper is actually good against shields though :/ (well, it does damage to them)
Logged

TaLaR

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 2794
    • View Profile
Re: Opinion on the IR autolance?
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2023, 11:08:26 PM »

IR Autolance and DEMs are new threats for Afflictor player to handle. Not a complete counter or anything like that, but definitely something to keep in mind or die very quickly if you fail to notice them.
Logged

CapnHector

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1056
    • View Profile
Re: Opinion on the IR autolance?
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2023, 12:00:46 AM »

I think you guys are underestimating this weapon. Let's try this:

Eagle layout 1 (contains spoilers)
Spoiler
[close]

Fighting standard Onslaught in the sim under AI control with no orders 3 times, we get peak performance timer readings at the point of kill of 330-309-307

Eagle layout 2 (contains spoilers)
Spoiler
[close]

Fighting standard Onslaught in the sim under AI control 2 times, we get peak performance timer readings at the point of kill of 229 and 277 (starting time is 480 btw)

There is a big difference between this and thumper, namely this has 5 times the hit strength vs armor.
Logged
5 ships vs 5 Ordos: Executor · Invictus · Paragon · Astral · Legion · Onslaught · Odyssey | Video LibraryHiruma Kai's Challenge

llama

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 47
    • View Profile
Re: Opinion on the IR autolance?
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2023, 01:00:35 AM »

There is a big difference between this and thumper, namely this has 5 times the hit strength vs armor.
1000 range and perfect accuracy helps a bit too, and it's a pretty good fighter-swatter in practice.
Logged

eert5rty7u8i9i7u6yrewqdef

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 333
    • View Profile
Re: Opinion on the IR autolance?
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2023, 01:11:59 AM »

I think you guys are underestimating this weapon. Let's try this:

Eagle layout 1 (contains spoilers)
Spoiler
[close]

Fighting standard Onslaught in the sim under AI control with no orders 3 times, we get peak performance timer readings at the point of kill of 330-309-307

Eagle layout 2 (contains spoilers)
Spoiler
[close]

Fighting standard Onslaught in the sim under AI control 2 times, we get peak performance timer readings at the point of kill of 229 and 277 (starting time is 480 btw)

There is a big difference between this and thumper, namely this has 5 times the hit strength vs armor.
Does it ever get close enough to the Onslaught where phase lances are viable? If it does, try Phase Lances. I suspect what is going on here is the Alpha core has energy weapon mastery, which is producing lopsided results.

This is my guess, IR Autolance has a hit strength of 125, vs Graviton beams hit strength of 50, once EWM is applied on top of this, the bonus hull damage of IRAL beats GB's shield damage, especially since Onslaught doesn't rely on its shields.
If the Onslaught had an officer, the Gravitons would win. If this was against a High Tech ship with efficient shields and quick dissipation, Gravitons would again win.

Try your loadouts against an Aurora and see if you get different results.
Logged

CapnHector

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1056
    • View Profile
Re: Opinion on the IR autolance?
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2023, 01:38:41 AM »

Sure! Alpha Core configuration is Field Modulation - Ballistic Mastery - EWM - Ordnance Expertise - Missile Spec - Target Analysis - Gunnery Implants

IR Autolance loadout vs Aurora, PPT readings at point of kill: 362 s - 277 s - 281 s
Graviton Beam loadout vs Aurora, PPT readings at point of kill: 204 s - 342 s - 47 s (not a typo)

Note that this combat has higher variance because of the Aurora's evasive maneuvers, with the kill depending on the Ion Beam disabling the engines. For example Grav Beam fight #2 was very lucky there. What is going on here is that when that happens, the IR Autolance kills the Aurora much faster.

I am not saying this is some kind of a super weapon. The appropriate beam for your loadout depends on a lot of things. However, you shouldn't overlook it just because Thumper is bad. Thumper gets a bad rap because it will deal very little damage to armored targets, which is not true of IR autolance. For example vs an Onslaught's minimum armor of 87.5 the Thumper will have a damage multiplier of 25 / (25+87.5) = 22.2% while the IR autolance will have a multiplier of 125 / (125+87.5) = 58.8%, dealing approximately 2.6 times more damage, and of course hitting instantly at a range of 1000. I personally think IR Autolance is good because being able to finish off targets fast once they are vulnerable is valuable, and the AI uses it exactly for this purpose.
Logged
5 ships vs 5 Ordos: Executor · Invictus · Paragon · Astral · Legion · Onslaught · Odyssey | Video LibraryHiruma Kai's Challenge

Draba

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 732
    • View Profile
Re: Opinion on the IR autolance?
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2023, 03:24:48 AM »

Somewhere between good and great IMO, obviously not for every ship but S/M energy doesn't have any alternatives for what it does.
On Executor it's straight silly, against 1200+ Ordos with no playership they routinely get >250 pro rata DP, despite Executor often turning off weapons while still at ~0 flux.
When HEF is up a brilliant's entire hull is gone in seconds.

Generally looks something like this:
Spoiler
[close]
(friendly cruisers leaving it with pants down in the front against 2 radiants is also typical, need to tweak my Eagle loadouts :) )


There is a big difference between this and thumper, namely this has 5 times the hit strength vs armor.
1000 range and perfect accuracy helps a bit too, and it's a pretty good fighter-swatter in practice.
1000 range, perfect accuracy, instant hit, not wasted on shields, very fast turnrate, M energy instead of M ballistic, 2.5x hit strength (beam hit strength is usually half of DPS, somebody checked and for autolance it's also 250).
So yeah, nothing like thumper :)
« Last Edit: May 17, 2023, 03:27:02 AM by Draba »
Logged

CapnHector

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1056
    • View Profile
Re: Opinion on the IR autolance?
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2023, 05:34:52 AM »

Somewhere between good and great IMO, obviously not for every ship but S/M energy doesn't have any alternatives for what it does.
On Executor it's straight silly, against 1200+ Ordos with no playership they routinely get >250 pro rata DP, despite Executor often turning off weapons while still at ~0 flux.
When HEF is up a brilliant's entire hull is gone in seconds.

Generally looks something like this:
Spoiler
[close]
(friendly cruisers leaving it with pants down in the front against 2 radiants is also typical, need to tweak my Eagle loadouts :) )


There is a big difference between this and thumper, namely this has 5 times the hit strength vs armor.
1000 range and perfect accuracy helps a bit too, and it's a pretty good fighter-swatter in practice.
1000 range, perfect accuracy, instant hit, not wasted on shields, very fast turnrate, M energy instead of M ballistic, 2.5x hit strength (beam hit strength is usually half of DPS, somebody checked and for autolance it's also 250).
So yeah, nothing like thumper :)

Oh yeah, apologies. I checked my old weapons data code and yeah it is DPS / 2 for beams. So what we have is effective hit strength vs armor of 62.5 and vs. the minimum armor Onslaught we would have a modifier of 62.5/(62.5 + 87.5)=41.7%. So a little short of double the DPS of the Thumper instead.
Logged
5 ships vs 5 Ordos: Executor · Invictus · Paragon · Astral · Legion · Onslaught · Odyssey | Video LibraryHiruma Kai's Challenge

eert5rty7u8i9i7u6yrewqdef

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 333
    • View Profile
Re: Opinion on the IR autolance?
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2023, 08:06:03 AM »

Sure! Alpha Core configuration is Field Modulation - Ballistic Mastery - EWM - Ordnance Expertise - Missile Spec - Target Analysis - Gunnery Implants

IR Autolance loadout vs Aurora, PPT readings at point of kill: 362 s - 277 s - 281 s
Graviton Beam loadout vs Aurora, PPT readings at point of kill: 204 s - 342 s - 47 s (not a typo)

Note that this combat has higher variance because of the Aurora's evasive maneuvers, with the kill depending on the Ion Beam disabling the engines. For example Grav Beam fight #2 was very lucky there. What is going on here is that when that happens, the IR Autolance kills the Aurora much faster.

I am not saying this is some kind of a super weapon. The appropriate beam for your loadout depends on a lot of things. However, you shouldn't overlook it just because Thumper is bad. Thumper gets a bad rap because it will deal very little damage to armored targets, which is not true of IR autolance. For example vs an Onslaught's minimum armor of 87.5 the Thumper will have a damage multiplier of 25 / (25+87.5) = 22.2% while the IR autolance will have a multiplier of 125 / (125+87.5) = 58.8%, dealing approximately 2.6 times more damage, and of course hitting instantly at a range of 1000. I personally think IR Autolance is good because being able to finish off targets fast once they are vulnerable is valuable, and the AI uses it exactly for this purpose.
Interesting. I use the thumper on my Hyperon flagship, either with a built in expanded mags, or for trash cleanup on SO builds. I'll give IR Autolance a second chance.

Edit:
On SO builds it is slightly better, with a difference of about two seconds. On non SO builds with built in expanded mag builds, thumper is better by about 12 seconds on average. This is vs a sim Onslaught.
For extreme armor, IR Autolance may be better, but for the normal heavy armor of the Onslaught, the thumper's dps outweighs IRAL's hit strength.

So IRAL is useful on ships that don't have a choice between thumpers or IRALs, and are long range builds so they can't mount phase lances. Which is a very tiny niche.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2023, 09:20:15 AM by eert5rty7u8i9i7u6yrewqdef »
Logged

Nimiety

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 115
    • View Profile
Re: Opinion on the IR autolance?
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2023, 01:58:44 PM »

I've tried using it on eagles and falcons, with DEM gravitons byffing HVD shots. Seems to work alright? Does nothing against capitals or cruisers until the bombers crack the armour but frigates and most destroyers get scared off quick.

It seems like they'd work well with breach torpedoes, but they're too short ranged for the cruisers to easily use.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2023, 02:00:47 PM by Nimiety »
Logged

Draba

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 732
    • View Profile
Re: Opinion on the IR autolance?
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2023, 02:31:35 PM »

I've tried using it on eagles and falcons, with DEM gravitons byffing HVD shots. Seems to work alright? Does nothing against capitals or cruisers until the bombers crack the armour but frigates and most destroyers get scared off quick.

It seems like they'd work well with breach torpedoes, but they're too short ranged for the cruisers to easily use.
They do kinda-sorta decent on Eagles for me but yep, not the main killer of any fleet.
Doing heavy autocannons instead of HVD because it really needs the DPS, and a single heavy mauler to dent armor a bit.

The nice thing is mags also buff burst PD laser, adding elite PD skill so everything on the Eagle has very long range.
Can clear fighters and missiles in seconds, throw some decent kinetic around, ion fools, help finishing smaller things in a wide arc and even contribute decent hull damage against big enemies.
Not the most overpowered ship in Starsector history but something different than what was possible before and still pretty useful, with autolances being the centerpiece.

Spoiler

[close]
« Last Edit: May 17, 2023, 02:44:14 PM by Draba »
Logged
Pages: [1] 2