Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Lawrence Master-blaster]

The big theory is you move your kinetic damage from Squall which no longer cuts the mustard to your guns and you make missiles your anti-armor and anti-hull tool instead.

As far as I'm aware this was never an option; once you start trading flux with Remnant you lose. "best" large kinetic weapon is the Mark IX, which has flux efficiency of 1, so the moment an AI core with (elite) Field Modulation pops in you're trading almost evenly(you should still be slightly ahead because of 100% CR and Ballistic Mastery) I guess you could also try the Storm Needler but it has only 700 range and does even less damage to armor than the Squalls do. Squall is flux-free, it's one of the best things about it, so I feel it's always going to be necessary.

Edit: Yeah, it's the Squalls at least partly. Locust is definitely at least competitive if not better now.

The problem is that Locust is now competitive not because it got any better but because Squall got worse.

[snicka]

Just a side note after reading all that: God bless Alex balancing the game at the same time for both the casual " I mount gigacannon beause it goes PEW" and for you guys basically making excel sheets.

[Lawrence Master-blaster]

I'd like to see the players who "mount gigacannon beause it goes PEW" try their luck against just one Ordo.

[CapnHector]

Edit: Yeah, it's the Squalls at least partly. Locust is definitely at least competitive if not better now.

The problem is that Locust is now competitive not because it got any better but because Squall got worse.

Locust doesn't really need to get better, though. DPS-wise its anti-shield output is comparable to unskilled Squall. Squall benefits more from Missile Specialization, though, but on the other hand you could argue Locust synergizes better with the other weapons available (we do not have large ballistics, instead medium kinetics are excellent lather than medium HE, although Squall would have a nice synergy with HIL on the Executor), and you could argue that Locust benefits more from Fast Missile Racks.

Last version we did very detailed math on the missiles and Locust and Squall both were very good and comparable. And Locust spam with HVDs and Mark IX autocannons was enough to take out the special remnant bounty last version, which is arguably comparable to double Ordo.

Really, just try out a Locust spam Pegasus with HVDs, you'll be pleasantly surprised.

[Megas]

I began using long-range Pegasus with Squalls and MIRVs, but later thought what do I need on Pegasus if I need more firepower and things need to die faster?

I recently tried Pegasus as player-controlled flagship with Reapers for missiles, and five HMGs (with ePD and Ballistic Mastery) and four Graviton Beams with High Scatter Amplifier, which has similar range to HMGs.  Idea was to emulate multiple Storm Needlers for high hard flux with lots of kinetics then burst down targets with Reapers and FMR.  Pegasus also has Helmsmanship and Impact Mitigation to make it faster and more maneuverable.  It looks like it works in the SIM, and a skilled Pegasus mows down two capitals very quickly with double Cyclone spam.  Have yet to test this in a real fight.  Not sure if this works for AI even with Reckless personality since AI seems so cowardly with short-range weapons.

Fast Missile Racks makes Pegasus overpowered.  Being able to unload three or four salvos of heavy missiles in a row is huge alpha strike.

[CapnHector]

All right, check this out guys. 6 Pegasus 6 Glimmer fleet vs. 3x Remnant Ordo under AI control. I was just overthinking it trying to go for fancy fleet maneuvers, and using an incorrect deployment order. You just need to... not do much, just defend your starting point.

That is 3 Ordos down without any player-controlled ship and only issuing a few commands, losing 4 Pegasus and 3 Glimmer. Admittedly losing Pegasi is not great, but I think this is still just very nice considering we no longer have Squall spam. What a lovely ship.

No mods, vanilla only, .96-Rc8.

The build.

Character and fleet

[close]

Battle report and screenshots

This is the order, which stays on during the whole battle and most ships receive no other orders. The only other one used is "Rally task force" to guide individual ships, once for a stray Pegasus and once for the Glimmers.

Standing here, I realize...

Just look at the kills at top left during the initial part of the fight.


Rest in peace Nova. The Squall build actually had trouble with these, imagine.


There is a pattern to these fights where the Apex-class ships come out to play after the rest of the fleet. This is where the Squall build might falter, again.


A final Nova is unceremoniously dispatched.

We lose the first Pegasus to a Radiant. They are the most vulnerable here, when the missiles are running out, and there are other ships to distract the Pegasi. After the Radiant fights go down to duels, the Pegasi are dominant again.

Deploying our ethical AI friends.

The battle line faces 3 Alpha Core Radiants. No sim Radiants this time.

Losses are sustained. One Radiant goes down, but so do our capitals. The final Pegasus is deployed and the fight is almost over.

The fight turns into two prolonged duels. Above, we have a Pegasus that has run out of missiles, but is helped by the Glimmers. Below, we have a fresh Pegasus that has no trouble handling an Alpha Core Radiant and a Scintilla.

Victory.

[close]

[Hiruma Kai]

The biggest differences I can think of between the nerfed Squall and Locust is the range at which they initially fire and the ability for PD to shoot them down.  Locust have base 60 hit points per missile, while Squalls have 300.  This jumps to 90 and 450 with Missile Specialization.  90 is still noticeably less than a Dual Flak's 150 frag damage or a Burst PD's 128 energy damage, while 450 can absorb multiple hits and still keep going.

Easiest way to see this is take a Pegasus and equip the rear missile mounts with Squalls (with ECCM and Elite Missile Spec officer if you want or not) and no other weapons, put it on auto-pilot, and try it against the good old sim Onslaught.  Then try the same thing with Locusts, and see the actual hit rate between the two, and also if under autopilot, if they fire off at all.  You can always grab control and manually fire them to see how many hit, since their effective range is longer than their launch range.

Against Ordos with Reckless AI, energy weapon ranges and energy PD, I think Locust is going to be quite effective and the right choice for finisher that happens to have good shield performance.  Against other fleets it will depend heavily on composition, and in some cases will perform worse than Squalls.  Good match ups for Locusts include short range, fast ships, so high tech and  Remnants, as well as frigate heavy.  Poor matchups include long range with good PD, such as a battle line made up of Onslaughts and Legions, so likely low tech or capital heavy compositions.

As a really crazy thought experiment, I do wonder how downgrading to installing a medium Sabot changes things against Remnants.  Odysseys already make fantastic use of medium Sabot Pods, and I wonder how that would work out on a Pegasus against Remnants.  Fast Missile Racks + medium Sabot Pods in principle bursts harder than Locust or Squalls.  4000 shield damage per pod per FMR charge.  Nominal launch range is actually not that much different from Locusts.  Easier to shoot down, but if enemies are in hugging distance, they'll be protected by shield before activating their second stage. 

Less total damage - but not that much less.  12 missiles * 1000 kinetic * 2 effective shield = 24,000 shield damage.  Locust with 600 missiles * 50 shield damage = 30,000 shield damage.  Squalls work out to 160 missiles * 250 kinietic * 2 shield = 80,000 shield damage, but less burst.  I guess is really does come down to what percent of each missile actually lands on target, and probably fewer percent in the case of Sabot compared to Locust.

[CapnHector]

You're almost certainly right about the matchups and this is totally juvenile, but...

Locust Battleship vs 3 sim Onslaughts

Full AI control, no orders. Onslaughts are standard variant. The only change I made to the Locust Battleship loadout was change officer personality to Reckless.


Almost all of the damage is taken killing the first Onslaught while taking fire from the other two.





Victory was not actually assured, it won 2 trials out of 4.

[close]

[Hiruma Kai]

So simply swapping the back facing two Locusts to Squalls and setting Locust + 2 Squalls to linked fire, same officer, same main character skill selection I'm guessing, reckless, and pristine ship gets me a flawless victory first time.  Squalls admittedly are getting a bit low (only 80 left each launcher), and the Reapers only kind of came into play on the last target - it was holding all 3 Onslaughts off at a decent distance, so they never actually ganged up on the Pegasus enough to do any real armor damage, let alone hull damage.  All done in 256 seconds according to CR tick down.  See attached images.

The Locusts can definitely be made to work, but I think the combination of Locust + 2x Squall is stronger in this particular triple Onslaught case, since you get the longer range fire benefit, enemy capitals backing off to give you breathing room, and still have some finisher follow up.

You might want to play around with swapping 1 Locust to Squall and linking the group to fire all together in your Ordo tests, as firing the locusts at longer range might have some benefit.  Or it might just make them back off earlier.

[Megas]

Alex just posted the hotfix that changed forward-facing large mounts into mediums, so just two medium and two large like on Conquest.

[CapnHector]

Oh. I should not have posted the triple Ordo combat until after we are done with hotfixes. What a shame, I really enjoyed the Pegasus, but what is the point of it now? With a Conquest you get better maneuverability and large ballistics.

With that change I believe it is likely the HIL Executor is quite a bit stronger than Pegasus. Will need to grind the story points and ships to test it. Possibly should leave it until we're done with hotfixes though.

[Alex]

Oh. I should not have posted the triple Ordo combat until after we are done with hotfixes.

(To set your mind at ease, I hadn't seen it!)

[Megas]

Maybe MIRV or DEM spam from the rear?  Or Typhoon reaper spam (but normal Venture can do that one).

[Lawrence Master-blaster]

Love is over

[Vanshilar]

Did you notice the Pegasus build and sample combat vs double Ordos under AI control above? That build at least does quite well under AI control. Meanwhile, the APL Executor build was not quite as effective, it struggles to clear one Ordo in a similar fleet.

Well it seems like you're running under different assumptions (using DO under AI control) but I don't think Autopulse Lasers would work that well because the ship can already put down a lot of anti-shield anyway from Squalls and Heavy Needlers or HVDs, it doesn't really need more. It would need more finishers hence HIL and IR Autolances.

The thing is, and maybe it's because the fleet is under AI control rather than having a player-controlled flagship, running out of Squalls when the ships have Missile Spec and EMR is way too long. Usually for double Ordos my ships can get by with just (elite) Missile Spec and not even need EMR. So I don't know if it's because a fleet under pure AI control is simply just a lot more inefficient, compared with having a player control a flagship and give commands throughout the battle (...although, generally speaking, about 1/3 of the way in I order full assault and give very few commands from there on out).

Squalls running out but Locusts not running out could mean the battle ends faster, or simply that Locusts are used less often, since they're much shorter range (1400 vs 2500). Base Squalls last 160/(20/19.5) = 156 seconds, while base Locusts last 600/(40/8.9) = 133.5 seconds, so if both were firing constantly then Locusts should run out first. Thus it's likely due to range difference. I think you'd need Detailed Combat Results to look at 1) how long the battle actually took and 2) how much damage the weapons are actually doing, as well as how many hits they actually get.

Squalls are good not just because they're anti-shield, but also because they can fire from such a long distance away. While they miss a lot, it means that by the time the enemy ship gets into range, it already has some hard flux built up, so there's less time when it's putting out its damage before it starts backing off. So it's better to pair anti-armor/hull weapons with it to make sure the target dies before it gets away. In 0.95.1a most of the anti-armor/hull was done by Mjolnirs or Harpoons or other weapons, not Squalls. They need to be paired with a better finisher than Autopulse Lasers, which uses its charges early on and then has relatively low DPS.

I don't know yet if double Ordos is larger now than before. At some point I'll probably record the stats for a bunch of Ordos fleets and see if the size is different now. In the meantime, however, does anyone know where in the code is the fleet generation for those fleets? I assume it has something to do with how many the player has already killed in the system, because the initial ones made by the Nexus are pretty wimpy, but then they ramp up in size. But I don't know how many fleets you have to kill before fleets reach "full size". It looks like a "full size" fleet is from around 250 FP to 400 FP (note this is FP not DP), so there is substantial variation in the size of a double Ordos fleet. I deliberately grabbed a pair that was average size on purpose for this reason in 0.95.1a; will have to do something similar at some point for 0.96a. So right now it may just come down to luck if a double Ordos feels longer than before.

Locust runs at around 899 frag DPS so it's around 225 DPS vs shields. Squalls run at around 256 kinetic DPS so it's around 512 DPS vs shields. (Note that although its damage was changed from 250 to 100, it has an on-hit effect against shields, so it still does 250 kinetic damage i.e. 500 damage per shot if it hits shields.) Both assume all shots hit, and many shots from both (particularly Squalls) will undoubtedly miss. However, the Squall's hit rate also includes the fact that it's firing at ships from 2500 su away, and it will at least hit somewhat at a range of 1400 to 2500 su, a range where the Locust's DPS is exactly zero. If the Squall were restricted to firing only at 1400 range, its hit rate would undoubtedly be much higher. Even so, with a hit rate of around ~50%, the Squall's DPS against shields is still going to be higher than the Locust's even if the Locust hits at 100%.