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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); In-development patch notes for Starsector 0.98a (2/8/25)

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Author Topic: I love Pegasus  (Read 12471 times)

CapnHector

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Re: I love Pegasus
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2023, 06:45:21 AM »

What? That is a test I routinely use when designing capitals in the sim. It is not conclusive but it is a start. A properly kitted Conquest can do it, but poorly built ones won't

Guess I've been kitting my Conquests wrong then. Can you show me a Conquest fit that can do it?

Sure. This is my default Conquest fit from last version, which I used for multi-Ordo farming and works for this Radiant test. I haven't in fact used Conquest this version but there is no reason why it shouldn't do it still, just reconsider the hullmods. Note that the Pilums are because it is meant to fight double or triple Ordos or more. If you are fighting single fleets then those should be Harpoons (or maybe some of the new missiles this version).

The build
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Amoebka

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Re: I love Pegasus
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2023, 06:48:46 AM »

5 arbalests with AWM is 919 DPS for 688 flux (1.33 ratio).
3 heavy needlers and 2 graviton beams is 1026 DPS for 750 flux (1.37 ratio). And in practice it's better than that, since it also increases anti-shield flux effiiency of autopulses.

Really, the main thing is you should be using gravitons. Ship has plenty of mounts for it, and +10% anti-shield damage is quite big.
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CapnHector

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Re: I love Pegasus
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2023, 06:54:37 AM »

Oh, nice! I had forgotten about +10% anti-shield. Graviton didn't exist to me last version because it is soft flux that does nothing to a Radiant. But now that you mention it, it probably should have Graviton.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2023, 06:57:22 AM by CapnHector »
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Lawrence Master-blaster

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Re: I love Pegasus
« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2023, 07:20:00 AM »

Sure. This is my default Conquest fit from last version, which I used for multi-Ordo farming and works for this Radiant test.

Well, it took 443 seconds and it ran out of Squalls at the very end but you're right, it did manage to barely kill two Radiants. Only the right side version though, the left side version takes damage almost immediately.

How it's supposed to kill three Ordos is beyond me though.
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CapnHector

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Re: I love Pegasus
« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2023, 07:36:13 AM »

Sure. This is my default Conquest fit from last version, which I used for multi-Ordo farming and works for this Radiant test.

Well, it took 443 seconds and it ran out of Squalls at the very end but you're right, it did manage to barely kill two Radiants. Only the right side version though, the left side version takes damage almost immediately.

How it's supposed to kill three Ordos is beyond me though.

Well, you mass that ship with the correct officer (try Ballistic Mastery, Field Modulation, Ordnance Expertise, Missile Spec (Elite), Target Analysis (Elite), Gunnery Implants) at the least and you pair it with the correct frigates, these being Afflictor (P) and Brawler (LP) in the last version. Try it yourself and you'll see how it works, the Conquests are pretty good at killing enemies fast while taking little damage. Although to be honest vs multi-Ordos you may need something more, specifically an anvil. This was my final multi-Ordo under AI control farming fleet last version and the battle plan was to issue a Defend order on the Paragon at the start. It is not guaranteed to win against a triple Ordo still but can do it without player input. Double Ordos should go routinely.
fleet
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This version I'm really hankering to do a Derelict Operations fleet with 5x Pegasus and 6x Alpha Core Glimmer with Ion Pulser and S-modded Expanded Magazines for 199 DP for Ordo farming, but not there yet.
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Lawrence Master-blaster

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Re: I love Pegasus
« Reply #20 on: May 11, 2023, 08:05:36 AM »

That fleet is 295 DP just in capitals?
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CapnHector

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Re: I love Pegasus
« Reply #21 on: May 11, 2023, 08:42:14 AM »

That fleet is 295 DP just in capitals?

Yeah it's not all deployed. I in fact have notes about how I used this particular fleet back when because Alex asked some questions about it. The strategy was

Quote
To combat multi-Ordos, though, I have found it best to deploy one Paragon instead. So the plan is to deploy a Paragon, three Conquests, and frigates, and use the frigates to capture Comms Relays, then deploy a fourth Conquest, cancel control orders and issue a defend order on the Paragon. This is the best strategy that I have found as it keeps the fleet as a "death-ball" and ships do not become isolated, and is the setup I find that you can leave to deal with multi-Ordos without further orders.

Tell you what when I have time I can re-download Starship legends for .96 and try if it still works despite Squall nerf. Also sorry Amoebka, didn't mean to hijack thread.

Edit: yeah this fleet no longer works as advertised. One reason is that the deployment costs are now significantly higher and you can no longer deploy as previously. It is pretty good that it works at all and you can tell it was pretty meta last version because of how many components were nerfed (Built in Heavy Armor, EMR, Squalls, Solar Shielding, Converted Hangar + Xyphos which never cared about the negatives, Brawler LP). I think it would still work vs a double Ordo but vs a triple Ordo I deployed it all and still lost under full AI control. In addition to the nerfs there is also the factor that the more mobile ships now break up the deathball. Here is a battle report with Starship Legends output:

Spoiler













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In .96 I think Conquest will still be a strong ship, but I'd be willing to bet $5 that Pegasus (or maybe Executor? but probably Pegasus) will be the new Ordo farming meta. That is because Gryphon and Conquest were very strong anti Ordo ships in .95, I don't know if Vanshilar ever did a head to head but both performed well in formal testing too. But Pegasus is like you get 2 Gryphons and an Eradicator on top for free, or 2 Conquests for the price of 1.25.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2023, 10:10:32 PM by CapnHector »
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Tigasboss

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Re: I love Pegasus
« Reply #22 on: May 11, 2023, 10:31:10 AM »

If Alex decides to nerf the Pegasus i would much rather it be bumped up in DP than to actually change the ship itself, its a lot of fun spamming hurricanes.
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CapnHector

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Re: I love Pegasus
« Reply #23 on: May 12, 2023, 02:40:16 AM »

All right, you know what, I love the Pegasus too. It is a queen among ships. Check this out, my 5 Pegasus 6 Glimmer fleet is not even done yet and it can already take out a double Ordo under AI control with just a few orders, losing only the Glimmers.

The build I settled on. If Reapers work for the Radiants, why not make them work for you too. In practice they seem to increase killing speed which is important. Also, I put in Advanced Turret Gyros because clearing remnant chaff fast is important in these fights. 2 Gravitons seems like the sweet spot from a cost benefit analysis.



Fleet immediately after combat & character skills

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Glimmer build
This is not a great one. It desperately needs Hardned Shields and RFC, but I haven't farmed enough SP yet. Still, good enough.

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Battle report


No further orders are given after this. The Defend order stays on for the rest of the fight.

The Remnant chaff melts like butter. Novas are surprisingly threatening to the Pegasus since they can attack from unexpected directions.


Radiants come out to play. This is where both Locusts and Reapers are very significant (Reapers are also significant for killing Apex droneships fast enough). The enemy Radiants are pushed away before they can deal any serious damage and eventually die to Reapers they can't block, either due to additional Reapers coming in from the side or due to being overloaded from blocking some earlier.





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Lawrence Master-blaster

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Re: I love Pegasus
« Reply #24 on: May 12, 2023, 02:52:45 AM »

If you want to keep Glimmers alive, give them a graviton and four tactical lasers, and Advanced Optics.
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CapnHector

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Re: I love Pegasus
« Reply #25 on: May 12, 2023, 05:46:01 AM »

Oh, it doesn't really matter that the Glimmers die eventually, in a Derelict Operations fleet all that means is some supplies lost. I just want them to be fast objective grabbers and frigate hunters that can capture Comm Relays and dispose of the initial few Remnant frigates guarding those quickly, and then be useful for a while after. I noticed that I didn't include the full build above, so here it is.

Glimmer
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SO Glimmers are in fact surprisingly durable - this build zips around at 236 speed with a good 360 degree shield. One major cause of early death is EMP arcs disabling the engine, so S-Modding in Hardened Shields eventually will mitigate that. S-Modding in a third thing to add flux capacity will likely make it much more survivable, but in the end, they do eventually die. If they don't they will do serious damage, though, which is evident if you use them against a human fleet.

The Pegasi might still pair better with Afflictor (P), which also work as objective grabbers, but would also give a damage bonus to the big guns occasionally.
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Vanshilar

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Re: I love Pegasus
« Reply #26 on: May 12, 2023, 11:28:49 AM »

3 heavy needlers and 2 graviton beams is 1026 DPS for 750 flux (1.37 ratio). And in practice it's better than that, since it also increases anti-shield flux effiiency of autopulses.

Realistically though it's hard to gauge the contribution of the 200 soft flux from the Graviton Beams; they definitely won't be as effective as the hard flux from the Heavy Needlers though, so you can't really just add them together.

Really, the main thing is you should be using gravitons. Ship has plenty of mounts for it, and +10% anti-shield damage is quite big.

That's one of the things that I'd like to test when I have time. In 0.96a, you also have the option of mounting IR Autolances in the medium energy slot, which reduces the time it takes to kill armor and hull. The AI for them is pretty good -- even with autofire on, they won't fire into shields except when they're at near full charges, and then they'll automatically burn through charges once shields go down. They also kill fighters pretty well so they help with anti-fighter coverage.

So the choice then is whether it's better to put in some Graviton Beams to speed up building up enemy flux, or IR Autolances to speed up finishing them off before they get away. I don't know which offhand (or what combination), but it'll be fun to see.

In .96 I think Conquest will still be a strong ship, but I'd be willing to bet $5 that Pegasus (or maybe Executor? but probably Pegasus) will be the new Ordo farming meta.

It depends. A lot of people seem to talk about the Pegasus being good as a player-controlled flagship, rather than under AI control. So it may not end up that great under AI control (although I think it'll do fine). So it depends on what you're talking about exactly.

I still think there will be a lot of other good options for player-controlled flagships, and it may come down to player preference. At some point I'll figure out a test for this as well, although I haven't really worked out the details. Right now I'm thinking of just spamming some ship under AI control (probably Gryphons) and switching the player-controlled flagship around, against double Ordos again, and seeing how much damage the flagship does in that environment. Maybe try other spammable ships if I have the time, but Gryphons are probably the easiest for the AI-controlled ship in the player fleet (in terms of, fewest issues with getting successful completions).

Not only that, but there are different flavors of each ship to consider. For example, one that I'm looking forward to trying in 0.96a is the energy Onslaught. The main limitation in 0.95.1a was that a lot of hybrid weapons had a relatively low sustained DPS, despite having good burst DPS. With s-mod Expanded Magazines increasing sustained DPS by 50%, that makes hybrid weapons in ballistic slots a lot more attractive. Maybe energy Retribution with Expanded Magazines and a bunch of Minipulsers/Cryoblasters with Ballistic Rangefinder will do well, who knows.

I didn't start doing formal, quantitative testing of the different ships until fairly late in the last update cycle; this time around I should be able to get more complete results, so that may include player-controlled flagships under a variety of fleet setups. It assumes that the player will behave similar to what I do, but I generally follow fairly simple rules and those are fairly straightforward to enumerate.

That is because Gryphon and Conquest were very strong anti Ordo ships in .95, I don't know if Vanshilar ever did a head to head but both performed well in formal testing too. But Pegasus is like you get 2 Gryphons and an Eradicator on top for free, or 2 Conquests for the price of 1.25.

Both did pretty well in formal testing in 0.95.1a, in fact, it ended up being that the best fleet I could find for Ordos-farming was player-controlled Onslaught, 3 Conquests, and 2 Gryphons. Gryphons on the flanks to catch anything that got past, Onslaught up the middle, and Conquests in between. So the answer for which was better was "both". Nobody ever gave a really strong loadout of the Onslaught under AI control for me to test, so I still don't really have a clear view of Conquest vs Onslaught. (I think for player-controlled the Onslaught is better though due to spamming Proximity Charge Launchers.)

For Pegasus, I'm concerned about how long it takes to switch between targets. Stuff like the Squall and Hurricane have a fairly long time switching from one target to the next. So they do well in sim and/or when testing against a single, big target like a Radiant. But during the other ~3/4 of an actual fight, they don't do anywhere near as well; a Squall hits close to 100% against a Radiant but somewhere around 50% against the rest of the Ordos fleet. A Pegasus that uses FMR for big Hurricane alpha against Radiants may lose out against the rest of the fleet. Hence I think Executor with HIL (or maybe Plasma Cannon, but I think that'll be too expensive) and HVD may do well, perhaps Heavy Needlers if the player doesn't take too much damage. I'll be happy to be proven wrong though.
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CapnHector

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Re: I love Pegasus
« Reply #27 on: May 12, 2023, 11:48:15 AM »

Did you notice the Pegasus build and sample combat vs double Ordos under AI control above? That build at least does quite well under AI control. Meanwhile, the APL Executor build was not quite as effective, it struggles to clear one Ordo in a similar fleet.

However, I'm not sure how good Squalls are anymore. They seem to run out by the end of a double Ordo fight with the Pegasus fleet, yet the Pegasi do fine on the strength of Locust and Reapers. I'm also not sure how good FMR is in practice.  So it is very possible HVD+HIL+Locust Executor will end up being better.

As for Pegasus, one thing to still try is 3x Locust+1x Cyclone Reaper. Locusts themselves are pretty strong vs Remnants, as evidenced by the Rampart spam build last version, and do not run out even in a double Ordo fight. With the Squall nerf they might even end up being better. Squall only has the bonus shield damage going for it now and that's it, otherwise it is bad.
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Lawrence Master-blaster

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Re: I love Pegasus
« Reply #28 on: May 12, 2023, 12:07:44 PM »

However, I'm not sure how good Squalls are anymore. They seem to run out by the end of a double Ordo fight

Oh thank god, I thought I was going crazy.

Double Ordo definitely lasts longer now. I don't know what's the reason - maybe it's Novas which just nope out at speed of sound so you waste a lot of Squalls on them. Maybe it's Apexes which can just soak damage. On more than one occassion I got 1k+ supplies(with Salvaging skill) after a double Ordo fight, which I don't recall ever happening in 0.95; could fleets themselves be just larger?
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CapnHector

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Re: I love Pegasus
« Reply #29 on: May 12, 2023, 10:28:07 PM »

Double Ordo fights are certainly slower. New fleet composition might have something to do with it, but also if you've been using Squalls then they no longer can finish off enemies quite as well.

 For example, ignoring all skills and hullmods, let's say we have a Brilliant with shields and armor down. An OG Squall would deal (125)/(125+0.05*900)*250=approx 183 hull damage. The new ones will deal 50/(50+0.05*900)*100=approx 53 hull damage, less than one third.

Based on my experience so far I am seriously wondering if the Squall was overnerfed and the new Squall is actually bait, and we should build ships in a different way even for fighting Ordos. Since the Squall has bad ammo, bad tracking, no burst and only works vs big ships even with ECCM, and no EMP either. And even vs shields for a Locust barrage you will do 2000 shield damage per burst with an overall DPS of 225 vs shields, whereas with a Squall it is 5000 damage per burst but it is not a real burst and only has an overall dps of 258 vs shields.

So the big problem with the new style Squall is even with armor down from a Hurricane it can't finish off an enemy like it used to. Instead it will keep the Remnants at a standoff distance with their shields down, which might even be bad if you are trying to kill them. I will definitely try 3x Locust 1x Cyclone Pegasus vs double Ordos later as it seems theoretically like this might be the better ship. Even for the Executor you probably want Locusts for the burst and also just because that ship wants a lot of hullmods and then you don't need ECCM.

 The big theory is you move your kinetic damage from Squall which no longer cuts the mustard to your guns and you make missiles your anti-armor and anti-hull tool instead. Note that in the Conquest math simulations (and the Derelict fleet I built) Locust was competitive with Squall even last version, but one received a massive nerf and the other didn't.

Edit: Yeah, it's the Squalls at least partly. Locust is definitely at least competitive if not better now.

Try this build:



You will see that this works against Ordos just as well but with a qualitative increase in killing speed and does not run out of missiles after killing two Ordos. I had a chance to try it a bit now, and it in fact came close to defeating a triple Ordo under AI control using just the same strategy of defending a single command relay, with a fleet of 6x Glimmer and 6x Pegasus. Beating a triple Ordo is something I haven't yet managed with either build so that is progress. Died to the last Radiants due to some of the capitals chasing a remaining Scintilla and getting split up.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2023, 11:04:10 PM by CapnHector »
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