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[Alex]

Obligatory - why balance around top player usage?

Honestly, that might be the most compelling argument for reducing its DP cost. Just want to make sure it doesn't end up being so cheap that it's too much of a clear-optimal flagship.

That's still an incredibly niche role and while it does it quite well, it does so with the logistical footprint of a capital.

I mean, that's just what it's absolute best-in-any-class at, not all that it can do!

The problem is that the Ret can't remove itself from trouble if it ever gets flanked and with how squishy the thing is, even a frigate flanking is dangerous. Most heavy fighters are dangerous to it, in fact.

With the mobility it has, if it finds itself flanked and without sufficient OD charges to get out of it, that seems like the player's fault, no?

[Nia Tahl]

With the mobility it has, if it finds itself flanked and without sufficient OD charges to get out of it, that seems like the player's fault, no?

In theory yes, but OD isn't that good of getting out of a flanking situation cause it only goes in one direction, not something that will deal with an agile frigate.

For testing purposes I personally changed it to 35DP and 1k armor and frankly it feels okay now. It still relies on the double dip on EMR and MA to spam those Gorgons, but I do feel like I'm getting my money's worth at least. I still find it very enjoyable to fly as it really plays more like a fast cruiser than a capital.

[Alex]

Hmm - the difference between having Systems Expertise/Navigation/Elite IM and not, perhaps? Vs all-alpha-core Remnants, it wasn't much trouble to avoid getting flanked, usually by popping the outermost frigate. Though it really does depend on the number that's trying to do it, if it's like 5+ there's likely to be trouble.

[SafariJohn]

Spamming small missiles to get enough firepower on a ship that can focus 3 large ballistics raises some question marks for me. I am also surprised it has less armor than a midline battlecruiser noted for having reduced armor. And wow I did not realize it only had 2 small ballistics in the rear. No wonder it is so vulnerable to flankers - maybe more than a Legion.

[Nia Tahl]

Hmm - the difference between having Systems Expertise/Navigation/Elite IM and not, perhaps? Vs all-alpha-core Remnants, it wasn't much trouble to avoid getting flanked, usually by popping the outermost frigate. Though it really does depend on the number that's trying to do it, if it's like 5+ there's likely to be trouble.

All my playing with the Ret has been done with all 3 of those since they are default picks for me anyhow.

[strcat]

Hmm. The effective mobility is about the same as the Odyssey, isn't it?

In AI hands, I agree with statement.  In player hands, I don't think so.  Mostly because Odyssey is a broadside/missile/carrier ship with a go-fast forward button, and the Retribution is a front facing gun ship with a go fast forward button.  The Odyssey can use its ship system to both get into, and out of trouble on a moment's notice when properly positioned.  Retribution can only use its system to get into trouble when bringing firepower to bear.

To be more specific, an Odyssey can come in at a roughly a 135 degree angle to enemy ships (nearly engine facing them), ready to move quickly away at a 45 degrees angle from the enemy ships, and still bring to bear 2 Plasma Cannons plus a large guided missiles, plus 3 guided missiles, plus 2 fighter wings.  And 4 small energy mounts I suppose.  At that same angle, a Retribution can bring to bear 6 small guided missiles, a large Ballistic, and 2 small ballistics.  Head on, it can bring to bear more firepower, so great at chasing down things weaker than it, but then it needs something like 5-10 seconds to turn even 90 degrees away to escape.  So less good at escaping things tougher and stronger than it.  Especially something like an Onslaught.  In that time turn time, Odyssey could have already moved 2-3 ship lengths away from incoming fire and be venting safely.

It's a completely different ship with the player using the ship system with Systems Expertise to flank and disengage when needed. AI tries to fly the Odyssey the same way it does the Conquest and the ship system doesn't fit with it. Odyssey's front small mount has broadside coverage too. 5x IR Pulse Lasers are 750 DPS with 0.8 flux efficiency, although it's nice to have a Tactical Laser in at least the front mount.

Spamming small missiles to get enough firepower on a ship that can focus 3 large ballistics raises some question marks for me. I am also surprised it has less armor than a midline battlecruiser noted for having reduced armor. And wow I did not realize it only had 2 small ballistics in the rear. No wonder it is so vulnerable to flankers - maybe more than a Legion.

4 support fighters are worth a lot and it has a ton of armor. Building in shield shunt means the Onslaught and Legion can have even armor than before at the expense of OP and the Legion got a big boost to OP.

[Rusty Edge]

I am sad that the retribution cannot use the new jackhammers.

[basileus]

FWIW, I felt that 40DP was appropriate for the Retribution.

I used the ship the way that Alex described, and had good results.  My build was very different.

I actually didn't feel that Systems Expertise was remotely worth it.  The Retty regens charges pretty quickly without it.

Much better mileage out of elite field modulation, imo.

S-Mods: Flux Distributor, Extended Shields, Hardened Shields.  Now it has a 180 degree omni shield with 0.78 flux/dmg + hard flux dissipation.  And there was much rejoicing.

Coordinated Maneuvers, Wolfpack Tactics, 3+ Omens.  As long as 2 frigates are alive, speed will be over 100.  If you're worried about being flanked or swarmed by strike craft, just assign an Omen as an escort.  With that much speed, there's little need to use the active system to disengage.  Just maintain a little situational awareness.

It's not going to brawl like an Onslaught, but it finishes fights so quickly.  End game, you're going to want a heavy capital in your fleet to serve as the Anvil.  This thing's the Hammer.

[Yubbin]

The Retribution definitely feels fine in my hands, but I'm worried about the AI controlling it, with it being so fragile and all. I'll try some testing.

[Brainwright]

This talk is making me want to try the Ret out as-is.

A ship that can tear up all the frigates dashing for objectives in the first seconds of the map?   I’ll take two and retreat them once the fleets are engaged.  After a couple of d-mods, it’ll even be cheap.

One thing looking at these builds is I’ve noticed kinetic damage becomes a liability once the target has high flux.  A bit more fine control in fire control would be great for low-tech ships.

[Dri]

Just turn those two forward medium ballistic back into missile/ballistic slots. Bammo, all good.

[Grievous69]

... what you're saying about burst damage makes me wonder about what Thumpers could do here, especially with built-in Expanded Magazines ...

I've tried that first actually, wasn't very impressive. It helps a bit with dealing with fighters but the initial burst of flux is very much an issue.

[Lawrence Master-blaster]

Okay, the first thing I did was to load my 0.95 save and test my double-Ordo fleet against the new Remnants.

The first two fleets I pulled had a combined XP bonus of 300%+ which is something that never really happened in 0.95, the typical XP bonus for my fleet composition was 100-200%. And sure enough, in three out of three attempts my Conquests ran out of Squalls. I don't know how typical such large combined fleet is - since I use double Ordo mainly as a measuring stick for the Omega bounty, this might not actually matter to me. I also haven't updated the Conquests to the current version of the game, since now they have bit of extra OP and free flux with the weapon changes.

I then jumped on a different save and checked my Lumen-Gryphon fleet and that did well, certainly better than what I remember. Granted they were not fighting a 300%+ megafleet, but it still had a Radiant in it and it's not like Gryphons would ever run out of missiles. As I expected, the fact that Brilliants no longer have Active Flare Launchers makes missiles more effective. Plus the AI seems to be better with missiles now, less stingy.

The Nova failed to meet my expectations, said expectations being "nova burst face first right into my frontline and die instantly". It's fast enough to retreat and still has the certified Remnant AI core armor tank. Overall it seems like a weaker version of the Radiant so in enemy fleets it's pretty whatever. I expect to be most useful in player hands because Radiant's 60 DP was hard to work around in fleets, 40 DP is a lot more reasonable, and it has some serious firepower potential if fit right.

On the other hand, the Apex turned out to be annoying simply because of how stupidly tanky it is. It doesn't really DO much - even with Energy Bolt Coherer it doesn't have the range to compete against capitals - but it just doesn't die. The fact that it's 30 DP and therefore you'll see most of them at the very end of a fight only exacerbates the issue.

----

"Hostile Activity" kept catching my eye so I checked it(I'm kind of surprised it's in the Intel menu and not Command menu by the way) and... it didn't look good. Now granted, this is a pretty crazy colony setup with 9 planets, each with an Alpha/Gamma AI core and a bunch of items, but still - keeping the bar from progressing seems like a pretty difficult thing to do. I might have to just eat the periodic -40% Accessibility and -4 Stability(I don't expect the actual events to be much trouble if they involve combat) I wonder if "High Command" bonuses stack so there's a reason to build more than one?

----

The new Lion's Guard weapons don't seem to appear on any markets, even black markets. Seems like the only way to get them is from Diktat's cold dead hands. Guess it's time to do some bounty hunting for pirates, kinetic blaster is too good to pass up.

Then I just started playing around with the refits: Single KB Shrike, Double KB Fury, The Better Paragon and, well, I'll just call this one "Why Are You Running"

As for Retribution, it has so much OP that you can actually dual tank it.

[Grievous69]

Kinetic Blaster is too good to pass up? Can you tell me more how effective do you find it, since to me it just seems okish.

And I somehow completely forgot Manticore (LP) is a new thing, I've been lucky so far and didn't get jumped by a Pather fleet.

[Lawrence Master-blaster]

Kinetic Blaster is too good to pass up? Can you tell me more how effective do you find it, since to me it just seems okish.

I mean, against shields it's basically a Heavy Blaster at half the flux cost. I admit I didn't test it in a fleet yet, but it looks promising.

Meanwhile, S-modded Insulated Engine Assembly gives an Atlas sensor profile of a frigate and S-modded Augmented Drive Field gives it base burn of 9 without Bulk Transport. It makes every single other hauler in the game obsolete, whether for smuggling or exploration(Since it's technically a capital ship, Atlas gets -40 supplies used bonus from Surveying Equipment) with just two S-mods; with BotB it's even worse.